Poll shows just 33% support the UK remaining in the EU

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The_Walrus
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19 Feb 2013, 5:51 am

The i and the Independent are practically the same newspaper.

It is obvious to anyone who looks at it for a second that right-wing newspapers dominate in Britain. Here are circulation figures: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/table/2 ... newspapers
The Torygraph and the Times have a combined circulation around double that of the left-wing "broadsheets", and the right-wing tabloids outsell them by miles.

The Daily Mail would absolutely say "no" in a referendum situation, there's no two ways about it. To demonstrate this, put "Daily Mail EU" (without quotation marks) into Google and look at the headlines that pop up.

So far, the political classes have allowed the UKIP scaremongers to dominate the conversation on the EU without speaking enough about the immense benefits of being in the EU. Hopefully by the next election someone who the public trust (i.e. not Clegg) can make a strong case for us staying in. William Hague would be my choice right now, or else Ken Clarke.

(When I was searching for approval ratings for Hague and Clarke just to check my perception of their popularity was correct, I found this: http://yougovstone.com/Research/198/may ... ougovstone - the call for a referendum on the EU was exactly the same size as the call for one on Lords reform!)



The_Walrus
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19 Feb 2013, 6:05 am

Tequila wrote:
The Independent is left-wing, Lib Dem supporting and pro-EU.

Oh, that's not right btw. They don't support any political party, even attempting to set up their own party recently. They supported the Lib Dems in the last election because of the Lib Dem policies of Lords reform and electoral reform.



Robdemanc
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19 Feb 2013, 3:11 pm

I might sound ignorant here but I have never had the slightest understanding of what it means to be in the EU. I hear a lot in the news about Europe etc but I never know what opinion I should have or if any of it affects me.

It may be the case that this lack of understanding exists in the majority of British people.



ICY
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19 Feb 2013, 4:07 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
I might sound ignorant here but I have never had the slightest understanding of what it means to be in the EU. I hear a lot in the news about Europe etc but I never know what opinion I should have or if any of it affects me.

It may be the case that this lack of understanding exists in the majority of British people.


I agree with you regarding the lack of understanding. Many people simply read the headline of their tabloid of choice and don't research what effects EU membership has on the UK.

The example of this that sticks in my mind is on an edition of Question Time, one of the panel asked the audience how many of them had read and understood the Lisbon Treaty. Almost none of them raised their hands. Bearing in mind that this was Question Time, who's audience is most likely more politically aware than the majority of the UK electorate, this doesn't bode well.



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19 Feb 2013, 4:36 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
It may be the case that this lack of understanding exists in the majority of British people.


Not only the British, The whole of Europe is confused about what the EU actually is, does and how it will impact their lives. Most people only care about how it impacts their lives and look at what the EU has brought them so far. And in the end, that´s all what counts.

Europe isn´t a monoculture and people fear the loss of their cultural values. The `horsemeatgate´ scandal is just one example. Brits don´t eat horse. Everybody knows that. For the Dutch (we´ve also been affected), it´s not the horsemeat itself (we do eat horse occassionally) but here the problem is not knowing where it came from and if there any harmfull chemicals in it like fenylbutazon that is given to horses to prevent colic. And so every nation has its own concerns.

The fact that you don´t know what the EU is all about plagues many Europeans as well. The objective is to create a greater unity, but if you look at the polls in European countries, there seems to be more discontent than there was before the EU.

These are not trivial matters. I became slightly hysterical when the EU wanted to regulate and privatize water management. That´s NOT a good idea in the Netherlands. We´re a country below sea level and have protested in the 16th century with a rebellion when a Spanish twit who happened to be overlord of these lands wanted to centralize our water boards. Bad idea. You don´t have time to consult a king 1000 kilometers away when the dikes are breaking. Fortunately, we´re exempt from this unholy EU idea. Undoubtely, similar things are happening all over Europe. And that´s just the problem. People don´t know what to expect anymore.



The_Walrus
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19 Feb 2013, 5:45 pm

ICY wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
I might sound ignorant here but I have never had the slightest understanding of what it means to be in the EU. I hear a lot in the news about Europe etc but I never know what opinion I should have or if any of it affects me.

It may be the case that this lack of understanding exists in the majority of British people.


I agree with you regarding the lack of understanding. Many people simply read the headline of their tabloid of choice and don't research what effects EU membership has on the UK.

The example of this that sticks in my mind is on an edition of Question Time, one of the panel asked the audience how many of them had read and understood the Lisbon Treaty. Almost none of them raised their hands. Bearing in mind that this was Question Time, who's audience is most likely more politically aware than the majority of the UK electorate, this doesn't bode well.

Another example is the blocked deportation of Abu Qatada, which the likes of Tequila use to bash "Europe". For a start, the European Court of Human Rights is not the EU, and secondly, it upheld the decision of the UK courts that said the Home Office was wrong to try and deport someone who would not face a fair trial and was at risk of being tortured.



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20 Feb 2013, 5:11 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
ICY wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
I might sound ignorant here but I have never had the slightest understanding of what it means to be in the EU. I hear a lot in the news about Europe etc but I never know what opinion I should have or if any of it affects me.

It may be the case that this lack of understanding exists in the majority of British people.


I agree with you regarding the lack of understanding. Many people simply read the headline of their tabloid of choice and don't research what effects EU membership has on the UK.

The example of this that sticks in my mind is on an edition of Question Time, one of the panel asked the audience how many of them had read and understood the Lisbon Treaty. Almost none of them raised their hands. Bearing in mind that this was Question Time, who's audience is most likely more politically aware than the majority of the UK electorate, this doesn't bode well.

Another example is the blocked deportation of Abu Qatada, which the likes of Tequila use to bash "Europe". For a start, the European Court of Human Rights is not the EU, and secondly, it upheld the decision of the UK courts that said the Home Office was wrong to try and deport someone who would not face a fair trial and was at risk of being tortured.


I think that for people like Tequila the EU and the European Court of Human Rights represent the same they they hate. That being any influence over UK affairs from mainland Europe regardless of what we gain in return. I personally think this could be rooted in England's dislike of France, the Splendid Isolation policy, World Wars 1 and 2 as well as the Cold war.



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20 Feb 2013, 5:17 pm

not to mention England's butthurt at losing its colonial influence.


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The_Walrus
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20 Feb 2013, 6:58 pm

thomas81 wrote:
not to mention England's butthurt at losing its colonial influence.

And our influence in general. We're not the world superpower we once were. The only way we can have any kind of weight in the world is by working with either Europe or America, or actually using the Commonwealth. Personally I think Europe would value us a lot more than America would.



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20 Feb 2013, 8:22 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
not to mention England's butthurt at losing its colonial influence.

And our influence in general. We're not the world superpower we once were. The only way we can have any kind of weight in the world is by working with either Europe or America, or actually using the Commonwealth. Personally I think Europe would value us a lot more than America would.


The US government has openly stated that they are shifting their main area of interest to the South China Sea.

The Commonwealth can't seem to agree on anything these days.

I certainly think that the Irag and Afghanistan wars have made the general public very much aware of our limited military capabilities. Hopefully this sense of pragmatism will enable the election of less gun-ho leaders. I hope in time it will also lead to our leaders finally dropping the diplomatic strategy of trying to ensure that no one country dominates the European continent, since the rest of Europe is moving closer together regardless of our wishes.



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20 Feb 2013, 10:36 pm

thomas81 wrote:
not to mention England's butthurt at losing its colonial influence.


None of us care about the Empire any more here. The more bitter Irish republicans (i.e. not the Irish in general) and African demagogues care about it because they live in the past.

Have you ever met any anti-EU types? If you knew anything about us, we're a hell of a lot more non-interventionist than the main parties. Aside from UK and territories, we propose not to get involved in foreign conflicts. That's what sticks in my craw about people who attack anti-EU types. If we just want to regain our independence and deal with our own affairs (whilst building good, friendly relations with our neighbours and trade with India and other expanding markets) without having a foreign institution do it for us, we're little Englanders. If we advocate for military action against some other place because of massive human rights violations, we're colonialist and imperialist! We can't win!

We want to look after our own affairs, and the countries of the EU can look after theirs. I'm not interested in the development of Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania on anything other than a friendly level, and I certainly do not want my country to pay for it. I do not feel any particular affinity with Poland, Austria or Italy just because we're on the same continent and in the same political union.

The Empire is long, long dead and gone and Britain got rid of it (rather too hastily in some cases - in fact, we were the opposite of, say, Portugal in many respects) because it was too costly to maintain. Anyone seriously advocating the return of the Empire would be looked at like they had two heads and should be taken care of by the men in white coats.

There are several Overseas Territories but all of those want to remain British, so it's not colonialism. If they wanted to become independent or join with another nation, I wouldn't be against them doing that. Scotland can go independent if it chooses too, as can Northern Ireland if they decide to do so.



Last edited by Tequila on 20 Feb 2013, 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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20 Feb 2013, 10:37 pm

ICY wrote:
since the rest of Europe is moving closer together regardless of our wishes.


No; you mean that the EU governments are trying to push their people closer together. Don't mistake the wishes of the governments for the wishes of the people.



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20 Feb 2013, 10:39 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
not to mention England's butthurt at losing its colonial influence.

And our influence in general. We're not the world superpower we once were. The only way we can have any kind of weight in the world is by working with either Europe or America, or actually using the Commonwealth. Personally I think Europe would value us a lot more than America would.


Why do we have to be with anyone? Can't we trade with everyone without being one power or another? Friendly relationships with everyone is my motto.



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21 Feb 2013, 7:35 am

Tequila wrote:
ICY wrote:
since the rest of Europe is moving closer together regardless of our wishes.


No; you mean that the EU governments are trying to push their people closer together. Don't mistake the wishes of the governments for the wishes of the people.


I remember your list of anti-EU parties within other EU member states. None of them had enough electoral success to signal strong anti-EU opinions from those nation's electorates.

Tequila wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
not to mention England's butthurt at losing its colonial influence.

And our influence in general. We're not the world superpower we once were. The only way we can have any kind of weight in the world is by working with either Europe or America, or actually using the Commonwealth. Personally I think Europe would value us a lot more than America would.


Why do we have to be with anyone? Can't we trade with everyone without being one power or another? Friendly relationships with everyone is my motto.


Does UKIP still advocate closer ties with the Common Wealth, if so that how would that fit your desire to trade with everyone and not a be political statement?



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21 Feb 2013, 10:38 am

ICY wrote:
I remember your list of anti-EU parties within other EU member states. None of them had enough electoral success to signal strong anti-EU opinions from those nation's electorates.


You could say that about the UK and about the Conservative party. All the governing parties are pro-EU, yet a majority of the electorate is anti-EU.

Oh, and I actually forgot the SP in the Netherlands, which are Eurosceptic (though not withdrawalist like the PVV). Did I mention the SGP as well? They're very anti-EU, but they only have a few seats in the Dutch parliament and they're a bunch of ultraconservative Calvinist theocrats.

Sinn Féin in Ireland are eurosceptic (in the Republic), but I'd not vote for them because they're a party of ex-terrorists.

What you must understand is that the wishes of the political parties and the wishes of the people often wildly differ. That's why you can have three pro-EU main parties and an anti-EU electorate.

Democracy doesn't work quite as it should, unfortunately, and many people are reluctant to trust a brand new anti-EU political party for various reasons. In some countries, there seems to be a lot of anti-euro/anti-EU sentiment, but nowhere to put it. And sometimes there are anti-EU parties that I would personally never vote for due to the nature of their other policies. I'd never vote for the FPÖ in Austria or Golden Dawn in Greece for example, but I'd never, ever vote for neo-Nazis. Also, Jobbik in Hungary is very anti-EU, but again, I think that I deliberately omitted (some of) these parties.

ICY wrote:
Does UKIP still advocate closer ties with the Common Wealth, if so that how would that fit your desire to trade with everyone and not a be political statement?


Yes, we'd like a Commonwealth Free Trade Area as we have a lot of common with many of the countries in the Commonwealth. That does not necessarily preclude us from forming other pacts with other countries too. Global free trade, good governance and peace in the nation is what we want.



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21 Feb 2013, 11:04 am

Tequila wrote:
ICY wrote:
I remember your list of anti-EU parties within other EU member states. None of them had enough electoral success to signal strong anti-EU opinions from those nation's electorates.


You could say that about the UK and about the Conservative party. All the governing parties are pro-EU, yet a majority of the electorate is anti-EU.

Oh, and I actually forgot the SP in the Netherlands, which are Eurosceptic (though not withdrawalist like the PVV). Did I mention the SGP as well? They're very anti-EU, but they only have a few seats in the Dutch parliament and they're a bunch of ultraconservative Calvinist theocrats.

Sinn Féin in Ireland are eurosceptic (in the Republic), but I'd not vote for them because they're a party of ex-terrorists.

What you must understand is that the wishes of the political parties and the wishes of the people often wildly differ. That's why you can have three pro-EU main parties and an anti-EU electorate.

Democracy doesn't work quite as it should, unfortunately, and many people are reluctant to trust a brand new anti-EU political party for various reasons. In some countries, there seems to be a lot of anti-euro/anti-EU sentiment, but nowhere to put it. And sometimes there are anti-EU parties that I would personally never vote for due to the nature of their other policies. I'd never vote for the FPÖ in Austria or Golden Dawn in Greece for example, but I'd never, ever vote for neo-Nazis. Also, Jobbik in Hungary is very anti-EU, but again, I think that I deliberately omitted (some of) these parties.

ICY wrote:
Does UKIP still advocate closer ties with the Common Wealth, if so that how would that fit your desire to trade with everyone and not a be political statement?


Yes, we'd like a Commonwealth Free Trade Area as we have a lot of common with many of the countries in the Commonwealth. That does not necessarily preclude us from forming other pacts with other countries too. Global free trade, good governance and peace in the nation is what we want.


The anti-EU protests I can find information on seem to be against current policy rather than the EU itself. It will be interesting to see how this situation develops as policies change.

Ah, so UKIP is not one of the groups calling for any kind of Commonwealth federalism. That does make more sense than leaving a union of countries just to attempt to make a union with different countries.