Getting really tired of the Humanities Vs. STEM stuff..

Post Reply New Topic

So right now i'm taking one of my two required science classes to finish up my core courses. I feel it's a very good thing to be well rounded in your courses and I was actually kind of excited to take the class. It's environmental science and since we all live in the environment it made it feel relevant to my major.

But, I think my teacher is being very unfair in the class. He's requiring us to use a lot of mathematics even though this is supposed to be a class for studying the environment.. and when questioned about it simply says "well you should already know this".. I met my schools mathematics requirement by taking a "Mathematical Modeling" class, and the stuff he's wanting us to do simply wasn't covered in it. I never took any highschool math beyond algebra either. For one thing once he found out I was a History major he's been constantly pressuring me to swap majors to "Something that can make money" even though I have no interest in ANY type of science or anything involving Mathematics beyond addition and subtraction.

I'm also really frustrated by the constant nagging whenever I talk to the academic advisers or financial aid officers.. they seem convinced that the ONLY options are always "swap majors to a STEM field" even though I've tried, very patiently, to explain to them over and over again, that that would simply result in me flunking out of school. I barely passed my remedial math classes to get INTO school, let alone taking more advanced material when I have such a shaky foundation to begin with. As a Humanities major I have a nearly perfect GPA, I have a single bad grade, in a math Class, which is pulling my gpa down.. but English, History, Religions, Philosophy, German, Anthropology, Geography, and Sociology.. in all of those classes I have A's across the board. even in Statistics I have a good grade. Why do they want me to swap to something which I will struggle and eventually destroy my gpa with? Is it that they want me to flunk out of school?

I realize that there is more money to be made being an engineer than a historian.. but I'd be a TERRIBLE engineer if I even managed to graduate.. isn't it better to be a graduated History major with a 3.8gpa than a flunked out Engineering major with a 1.9?

That's not necessarily true about history majors not making money.

I am a history major, and about to graduate and go to graduate school. Let me tell you the secret that everyone knows but is too darn scared to admit: making money is about working hard and producing good work - NOT about the subject that you studied.

History is one of the most diverse majors one can have, job-wise. It's the field that underlies every other field, and if you do well in it, there are a variety of other jobs that open up to you. Granted, you need a graduate degree to really get anywhere with history itself, but that's becoming the norm with most things.

If you do well, show your self-motivation, learn the material as thoroughly as you can, and most importantly, do your own research and get published then you will stand out in your field and opportunities will open up for you that most people don't get. There are two reasons for this:
1. People assume history is a bs degree (I don't mean bachelors) and they are surprised to find people that have real talent and drive in the field. We are pretty rare. Thus, we have an advantage over the HORDES of people in majors that "make money" because there are so many of them and its just "common." Don't be common.

2. Students assume history is a bs degree and they bs their work and end up unemployed because they didn't want to push themselves and actually MASTER something. What person would want to hire anyone who has that kind of an attitude? Unfortunately those types of people have over-populated the liberal arts because they think its easy. It's only easy if you don't have the drive to really master it. If you do, then it becomes an art in and of itself, which is never trivial. People like to hire those who seek to master things and do well at them, and who CARE about something. They would rather take someone excellent with a liberal arts degree than someone mediocre with a purely scientific degree. People who tell you otherwise are short-changing you.

As for me, I'm about to be published within the next few months (possibly 3 times), have a track record of leadership in my school (although a little difficult - I am autistic) and know 2 foreign languages enough to write in them, and am learning many more than that. I have a 4.0. I've worked my butt off. And you know what? I have the opportunity to get into an amazing graduate school, tuition paid, WITH A SALARY. People already come to me and ask me to speak and give my insight into situations, because history is a specialty field that no one who hasn't studied it really knows. However pathetic that might be, it gives me an advantage.

In other words, I followed my own advice. I didn't listen to the half-hearted and half-witted rages of those people who think that liberal arts degrees are worthless. And, because of that, I stand out from those people.


My advice to you - study what you LOVE and show you love it and have something to offer someone (that no one else has in abundance) and you will get opportunities to really succeed. Study what you hate in the name of "making money" and you're just mediocre like the rest of them.

If you ever want to talk history, shoot me a pm.

If it's not too late in the semester to do so, drop the class and get into another course that fulfills the requirement.

I find it incredible that the academic advisers at your school advise AGAINST the liberal arts majors. Does your department know about this, I wonder? Try getting an advising appointment in the history department and telling them that this is happening--the outrage will travel up the chain from your department chair to the university administration and that kind of biased "advising" will hopefully be stopped.

Two things...
First, to the OP,
what the hell kinda of school are you going to?

I cannot believe you are getting that sort of attitude at an actual university... and community college maybe, but not an actual university.

That said...

I was a History major and I came very close to changing to STEM Education because I spent 20 years doing applied science before I went back to school. However, I was going to lose too much progress (and I had nightmares of being stuck teaching junior high school).

In the end, I settled on Social Work.

Besides History, I love Social Sciences, I'm passionate about social justice and politics, and Social Work is the best way to apply Social Science and make a difference. Ultimately, I want to do research and work on public policy...

I won't get rich as a Social Worker, but I will be able to find a job.

If you love History, be a History major but be prepared to be flexible in the sort of job you are willing to do after graduation. As a matter of fact, no matter how far along you are, you need to be thinking about what sort of job you want, NOW... You might find that you want to switch to a related major or add another major/minor in a related field.


To EstherJ,

Being a History major can be dicey. If you are young, talented, and vigorous, I agree that you can be successful... but it will be tough. History is a great base for law. It's a great base for all sorts of research. If you are a talented writer, it's great training for an author. If you want to teach and you are personable and brilliant, you could land a good teaching job (at the university level)...

Probably the easiest path would be a BA in History and a Masters of Education letting you teach in Hell, err... High School--but who wants to do that?

I find if you reallly are that bad at it then maybe humanities might be good for you. It also helps people in STEM that are good at math find a job so they can succeed and would not be good.

I'm actually at a Community college right now getting my core classes done, I can't drop the class cause it would screw up my PELL grant as there are no second half semester classes to replace it with, and all the "Humanities & Business" department people are always doom and gloom and trying to get me to swap to business... I mean I've basically been told by teachers and administration that I'm wasting my time (and therefore theirs) by not swapping.


As far as Jobs I want.. that's tricky cause I'm 28 already.. and I'd ideally like to work for the government as some sort of analyst.. maybe state department... but really I'd like to go to graduate school in Europe and try for a higher degree in history, my secondary major is Geography, but it's only human geography not GIS...

I'd love to go to school for Geographic Information Systems.. and while I don't doubt I could do the work required for the degree, it's the 3 calculus classes that are require for it that are stopping me... I just don't find math fun and that makes it very hard to concentrate on.

Ultimately I think everything is valuable, since even to get a Fine Arts degree at most places in the US you have to pass all kinds of higher education classes..

I think this sudden push to make education profitable is the problem.

and I really hate the constant antagonism this sort of attitude feeds. There are people at school who are cool people yet, when they find out that I'm "Taking the easy way out".. I'm suddenly not worth talking to anymore..

But that's exactly my point. It's not going to be really easy to succeed in ANY major. There is no such thing as an "easy money major." I have friends in STEM areas who can't get hired, and they are well qualified. It's all over the board. But if you commit to what you are doing and especially if you enjoy it, you will do well wherever you go. And it doesn't have to be a historical degree area either. You can branch off into another area in grad school. History is a versatile degree despite the stereotype. I do agree that generally you need a graduate degree for history to be useful, but as I said above, that is becoming the case for MANY majors.

Yes, much as I kind of want to do History as a Masters program I might wind up doing something like International Studies or maybe something to do with the European Union... haven't decided yet. But I do know my next step out of college will either be either Grad school, or the Peace Corps in order to take advantage of their Stafford loan reduction (between half and all of it allegedly, depending on how well I do over the 2 years) and then grad school. But it's definitely going to include more school as I really enjoy it and I like doing it FAR more than I like working retail.

I look at it that, I'm already broke, but I'd rather be some place else and be broke than be here and be broke.

"No, It's going to be fun"

Like I said before... I did tech work for 20 years and once you have a bit of experience it really is an easy money field.

I used to give skill tests to tech applicants at one company I worked for and we had a 90% failure rate for Kansas State grads... Unfortunately, many STEM grads are not qualified for anything.

Employers want a degree and PROOF that you are qualified. That means a year or two of experience before you can easily get a job.

I'd recommend seeing your professor outside of class to get extra instruction in how to do the math. I'm sure he'd be more than willing to help during his office hours, maybe he could suggest some good strategies you can use to get more practice as well. Math is fundamentally required in many science courses...to fully understand the concepts you have to understand the math that goes along with it. So it's only natural to include it in the class. Just get into the mindset that you have to complete the class, and it's just as important for graduation as anything you're taking in history! Even if you'll never use the material again, you are using it now to actually get a degree!

That said I'm surprised an environmental course would have very much math involved, I've taken a couple environmental courses and they've all been pretty light on the math (even the environmental engineering ones). What sorts of things are you calculating, pollutant concentrations, 100-year storms, and stuff like that?

well you see to me stuff like percentages are difficult. Stuff that people consider "Easy", I don't. It's not that it's "That much math" it's that it's there at all that's the problem.

That's compounded by the fact that, it doesn't matter how much extra help I seek out, ultimately I don't want to know how to do this stuff because I don't care about it, I really have no interest in cosigns or tangents or any of that. All I'm interested in doing is spending a lot of time in the library reading books and writing papers...

Statistics I'm doing EXCELLENT in.. geographical analysis such as gradients and stuff I do okay in too, but anything that is in the least bit abstract I can't do.

Sounds like it might be dyscalculia. Most people aren't capable of doing excellent in statistics without also dealing with percentages easily.

I wondered if it could just be the presentation.. my statistics teacher is very quiet and goes over things in class very slowly.. my environmental science teacher just kind of tells us what to do and then goes and sits down without giving much instruction.. he's very loud and blustery also.

It might be the presentation but it could also be dyscalcula. I have dyscalcula and the only math class I ever passed in college was Statistics. It wasn't that the Statistics professor was better at explaining than the Calculus professor. I failed Calculus twice (and then gave up) after taking it from two separate professors. They explained things at length but it just couldn't penetrate my head. The Statistics professor was no better at explaining but things just made more sense because the concepts were so concrete.

The Enviromental Sciences professor really should have put specific math courses or general math abilities (such as "must be proficient at algebra") as a prerequisite for the course.

If you are going to pass this course you will need outside help with the math. I thoroughly understand the mindset that you don't even want to know this stuff because you don't anticipate ever having a job where it will be needed. I had the same mindset in college (a common one for people with dyscalcula) so I learned just enough to pass whatever course the math popped up in. Like you, I was advised to master advanced math concepts to make myself eligable for high paying STEM jobs. Like you I also acknowledged to myself that I would always be mediocre at best in those fields and would be justifiably passed over for jobs in favor of people who actually felt comfortable enough with math to do it proficiently every day at work. I now work in healthcare, a field where the math never exceeds what can be done on a four-function calculator and nobody ever mentions cosigns, tangents or any form of algebra, let alone calculus.

Follow what you know are your strengths. Don't let anyone talk you into a major where you will be the least qualified of any of the job candidates. Get outside help to learn just enough math to pass the course but keep your major as something where you will be well qualified for any future jobs rather than mediocre.

I think you said something in your post that is really really spot on.

"Concrete concepts"

Statistics and Geographical analysis are both things which are measurable and things which I've done GREAT in..

I got a 105 on my last stats test and a 100 on my Geographical analysis.. But when it comes to doing formulas for the chemistry portion of ENVS I suck at and cannot do. And it's annoying too as ENVS, along with BIOL - Cell Genetics, are supposed to be the two "Non Stem" major science classes.. and I think that's why he's doing what he's doing. He doesn't like the non stem majors and is punishing us for taking "easy" courses..


I'm not failing in either of his classes.. the lab or the lecture.. because there is enough stuff in them that doesn't need math, or is concrete enough math I can do it... I'm just not going to be able to get an A in either of them..