Skills downplayed, "interpersonal" side overblown

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MissMoneypenny
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04 Mar 2013, 9:16 am

Our office's HR department was on the verge of instituting disciplinary proceedings just before I disclosed that I had AS. They stopped the proceedings but quite frankly I'm getting fed up of bad feedback. So I pinned down the HR boss and demanded to know, competency by competency, exactly what the problem was.

Every skill and attribute that could possibly be objectively measured, she admitted was very good: punctuality/attendance, technical skills, systems knowledge, subject knowledge, keyboarding speed, written skills, and so on.

However, she had difficulty defining exactly what the whole "interpersonal" side of things was that is allegedly causing such a problem. Every time I have pushed her to tell me what precisely it is that I am doing or not doing, I get a different answer and to me there is no pattern. I can't even grasp how it is "performance" - although I could see how it could be perceived by colleagues and bosses as a personal eccentricity.

The reason this is such a problem is that HR/certain bosses have inflated this whole issue into being nearly 100% of what I am supposed to be doing there. It feels as if my actual technical skills are being downplayed into almost irrelevancy, while "Ingredient X" is (according to the HR manager) "what they pay me for".

So now I'm about to be sent to the firm's occupational health service, where there is no guarantee there will be anyone who has the first clue about ASD's. I'll probably end up talking to some "counsellor" who thinks they can coach or headshrink me into being more "normal". They would be far from the first who have tried.



Logan5
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04 Mar 2013, 10:16 am

If an employer wants to fire a worker, but the employer does not have a clear cut reason for doing so, what the employer does is create a paper trail by issuing negative performance evaluations. The employer then makes a feeble attempt to assist the employee with improving his/her performance. This goes on for several months to a couple of years, until they have amassed sufficient justification (i.e. a big enough paper trail) for firing the person. (Edit. If you have a formal diagnosis, then they may try to get rid of you via "medical retirement".)

MissMoneypenny, I am sorry this is happening to you, but I recommend you start looking for a new job. (Don’t quit your current job until you have found a new one. For some strange reason it is often easier to get a job when you are already employed.)



Last edited by Logan5 on 05 Mar 2013, 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.

Tyri0n
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04 Mar 2013, 10:35 am

What did she say was wrong with your interpersonal skills? Different answers each time? Maybe there is a pattern. Why don't you let us know what she said?

I worked white-collar type jobs for 5 years before law school, so maybe I can have some insight. I'm sure someone else with more experience can help better. But without specifics, we really can't help.



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04 Mar 2013, 11:46 am

Logan5 is bang-on correct.

And I doubt she can be very specific, Tyrion - the insidious nature of AS and how it affects people is millions of tiny things... thus HR responds with an equally-insidious "we can't quite put our finger on it either - but we don't like you and we want you out."



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04 Mar 2013, 11:50 am

BlueMax wrote:
Logan5 is bang-on correct.

And I doubt she can be very specific, Tyrion - the insidious nature of AS and how it affects people is millions of tiny things... thus HR responds with an equally-insidious "we can't quite put our finger on it either - but we don't like you and we want you out."


They'll usually say something. I believe I've been enough in these types of positions and seen enough people fired for various reasons (including in multiple cultures) to be able to infer what might be going on from vague statements. I'm sure others could be even better.

I even got fired once myself back in '09 for, yes, drugs and prostitutes, but also other things. Then, I saw an NT with aspie-like characteristics get fired from my next job in 2010 for "vague" reasons, but I was kind of on the inside and got to see both the reality of what the managers said as well as the vague statements put out. Then, a similar situation happened later that year, and then two people got fired in 2011. This year, even though I'm part-time and in school, I've overheard management talking about getting rid of a full-time guy who is an aspie. So, I think I can at least give it a shot of making inferences from vague statements, and there are others who can correct me and make it even better. I think it's very, very important that OP figure out specifics, or it's just going to happen to her again.



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04 Mar 2013, 12:16 pm

^^^ Good point. If nothing else, it'd be interesting to add those stories to my collection of "HR atrocities".



Ann2011
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04 Mar 2013, 12:45 pm

I'm with Logan5 too. They are creating a paper trail and creating situations where they can be perceived to be trying to accommodate you. Time to start looking for something else.

It's so frustrating! Why is so much importance put on interpersonal behaviour?! I have been in situations where I am the most competent employee, but have been marginalized for no apparent reason.

Maybe you can find a better environment.



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04 Mar 2013, 12:55 pm

One possibility is that you are doing too much work, and therefore placing unreasonable expectations on your co-workers. This is what is meant by being a "team player," you don't out-shine your co-workers.



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04 Mar 2013, 12:57 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
I'm with Logan5 too. They are creating a paper trail and creating situations where they can be perceived to be trying to accommodate you. Time to start looking for something else.

It's so frustrating! Why is so much importance put on interpersonal behaviour?! I have been in situations where I am the most competent employee, but have been marginalized for no apparent reason.

Maybe you can find a better environment.


It's all about what value you add to the company. If your skills do not add more value than you detract from the team as a whole, they will fire you.

I'm inclined to be sympathetic but also cautious because I know aspies who've gotten trouble at work for sexist, homophobic, and racist comments, and I think someone like that deserves very terrible things to happen to them. Most of these are men, however. I'm curious as to what OP's HR department told her and whether her position involves dealing with customers in any fashion (if not, then it should be easier to figure out what's going on).

Some people (aspie and NT) don't know how to treat others with respect, or how to compromise, and they deserve to be fired. I feel really bad for people who are fired for things like body language, image, or "vibe" however, but I think those things can be changed too.



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04 Mar 2013, 1:04 pm

Tyri0n wrote:
It's all about what value you add to the company. If your skills do not add more value than you detract from the team as a whole, they will fire you.

I think too much value is placed by companies on interpersonal skills. If other people would learn to lighten up and be more accepting, people lacking in these skills may be found to be more of a benefit than is assumed.
I too am curious as to the OP's current employment situation. If it is customer service based I can see where there might be a problem.



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05 Mar 2013, 2:28 am

In my opinion MissMoneypenny you may need to find another job. You should start now. And do not let them know you are looking.

HR which I am guessing is the tool of someone else who wants to can you.
HR does not want to get sued so they will find out what AS is so they can get your head on the politically correct chopping block. There are risks and benefits of not following the heard.

Politics can at times be very strange, you could be doing everyone else job.
Yet that click among everyone else could be running a weed dispensary on company time and still they would give you bad reviews and try to get you canned. Of coarse they would give good reviews to the ones running the weed dispensary on company time and recommend them for promotion and maybe even a raise. Probably a bad example but you get the idea.

One good thing is people do move on change jobs, get promoted, new managers which could completely change everything. Still I would look for another job.



MissMoneypenny
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07 Mar 2013, 9:43 am

OK, I'm back. To answer the question about my current employment situation, I work in a law office with minimal direct client interaction.

It's very difficult to give specific examples, because the people concerned are themselves very poor at giving specific examples.

The few examples I have been given, I'm sure you'll agree, are lame beyond belief. Things like how I didn't cc in one boss when I emailed as an attachment a letter to an outside party that he had signed and asked me to send, or how I'm supposed to have misinterpreted instructions on a couple of occasions. One time we were supposed to have an office clearout, but the clearing-out party we were going to have one evening never took place in the end, and one person made a fuss because she had a small pile of documents she'd wanted shredded. She could have asked me, or even walked a few paces outside her door to where there's a confidential shredding bin.

Other complaints are as a result of events that have only unfolded that way because of their own actions. For example, this same woman who wanted the shredding done sent me an email saying she needed a document formatted urgently. It was already late in the afternoon and I was already completely under the cosh trying to finish compiling a report that the head of our department needed in front of him to run through with the client by international conference call. I explained what I was in the middle of and said I had no capacity, and needed to finish what I was doing without getting side-tracked as the head honcho and this important client had already started their phone call, but in about 10 minutes' time I would liaise with the night secretary and explain to her what needed to be done. When I had finished the report and passed it to the department head, I immediately called the night secretary as promised, only for her to tell me she was already working on it! Not only did this woman choose to bypass me in this way, but she made a complaint that I hadn't "been responsive" and ensured she was serviced straight away.

Is this what they call passive-aggressive?

Everything else is "explained" to me in very general terms, such as that they want to see more "initiative" and "proactivitity", whatever they mean by that. However, I'm already so stretched working for 8 people that it's a constant battle to keep the urgent and important work turned around on time (a situation of which they are aware). Experience has shown that if I show my face at someone's door too often, they'll assume I'm not busy and will load me up with fiddly, nitpicky tasks that I don't always feel confident doing and really don't have time to accommodate anyway. Even when there is a lull period, I really NEED that time to play catch-up and recoup my personal energy resources.

I think others cope with the workload and ridiculously overstretched professional/support ratios by staying late into the evening but that isn't an option as I look after my sick partner evenings and weekends. And yes, someone made a fuss about that too when I got a phone call saying my bf was ill and I had to leave on time.



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07 Mar 2013, 12:41 pm

You have AS. This is the fundamental problem between AS and NT.

AS cares about WHAT you say. NT cares about HOW you say it. (yes, you can be completely wrong and it's ok if you say it the right way. This is total madness to AS people)

I experience this all the time. What you are encountering is that your co-workers "feel" a certain way towards you, rationalize their feeling, and complain about it. What's most important to your boss and HR is that all the workers are getting along and from their perspective you are the source of a bunch of problems. What's really going on is that everyone around you fails to recognize their own cognitive biases, true feelings in the situation, and where they themselves are accountable.

The solution to the problem is a long a difficult path of educating everyone on how to be aware of what's really happening and not push their own insecurities onto people who are different. Maybe this job is not worth the fight, but there is not much guarantee the next job will be better. Maybe you can start with HR. Get an agreement that the most important aspect of the job is the technical skill and you meet that. Next would be to find resources to educate the HR department about AS.

If HR is unwilling to work with you on this, it will never get better.



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07 Mar 2013, 3:10 pm

MissMoneypenny wrote:
Our office's HR department was on the verge of instituting disciplinary proceedings just before I disclosed that I had AS.

What actions are they taking based on your disclosure if any? They may not be familiar with ASD and not know how to handle it.
Your job sounds very high stress. I used to work in a law office years ago. I didn't fit in at all.



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07 Mar 2013, 3:18 pm

MissMoneypenny wrote:
OK, I'm back. To answer the question about my current employment situation, I work in a law office with minimal direct client interaction.

It's very difficult to give specific examples, because the people concerned are themselves very poor at giving specific examples.

The few examples I have been given, I'm sure you'll agree, are lame beyond belief. Things like how I didn't cc in one boss when I emailed as an attachment a letter to an outside party that he had signed and asked me to send, or how I'm supposed to have misinterpreted instructions on a couple of occasions. One time we were supposed to have an office clearout, but the clearing-out party we were going to have one evening never took place in the end, and one person made a fuss because she had a small pile of documents she'd wanted shredded. She could have asked me, or even walked a few paces outside her door to where there's a confidential shredding bin.

Other complaints are as a result of events that have only unfolded that way because of their own actions. For example, this same woman who wanted the shredding done sent me an email saying she needed a document formatted urgently. It was already late in the afternoon and I was already completely under the cosh trying to finish compiling a report that the head of our department needed in front of him to run through with the client by international conference call. I explained what I was in the middle of and said I had no capacity, and needed to finish what I was doing without getting side-tracked as the head honcho and this important client had already started their phone call, but in about 10 minutes' time I would liaise with the night secretary and explain to her what needed to be done. When I had finished the report and passed it to the department head, I immediately called the night secretary as promised, only for her to tell me she was already working on it! Not only did this woman choose to bypass me in this way, but she made a complaint that I hadn't "been responsive" and ensured she was serviced straight away.

Is this what they call passive-aggressive?

Everything else is "explained" to me in very general terms, such as that they want to see more "initiative" and "proactivitity", whatever they mean by that. However, I'm already so stretched working for 8 people that it's a constant battle to keep the urgent and important work turned around on time (a situation of which they are aware). Experience has shown that if I show my face at someone's door too often, they'll assume I'm not busy and will load me up with fiddly, nitpicky tasks that I don't always feel confident doing and really don't have time to accommodate anyway. Even when there is a lull period, I really NEED that time to play catch-up and recoup my personal energy resources.

I think others cope with the workload and ridiculously overstretched professional/support ratios by staying late into the evening but that isn't an option as I look after my sick partner evenings and weekends. And yes, someone made a fuss about that too when I got a phone call saying my bf was ill and I had to leave on time.


I'd suggest that this job is not a good fit for you. It's not only interpersonal things tripping you up; it's also job performance. You have trouble multitasking in a job that requires a lot of it. You are not willing to go out of your way to help people who need help. While your behavior itself may not have been unreasonable, I have an image in my head that you come across as if helping other people is a burden. I actually love helping people at work and go out of my way to do so -- because that means they are more likely to have my back when I need it. I almost never say no to anything; I'll just try to negotiate alternatives if there's a conflict. That's the proper conduct in the workplace.

Finally, you are working in a law office where people typically stay late until their work is done. You are unwilling to do this, which makes you appear like a slacker. Sure, you have a sick boyfriend, but if I'm a boss, I care about your performance. If I were the boss, I would call you into my office and try to negotiate a way for you to get your work done. If necessary, that may involve finding someone else to care for him, or it may involve you working extra hours on certain days or weekends. But it's important to be open and flexible, and it appears that you are not this way.

May I also suggest, you don't sound like you act very happily or amiably at work. No one wants to work with the dour, bitter person with a frown on her face who always does the minimum just to get by and doesn't care about others in the work place. Do you complain a lot also?

If you cannot fix these things, they will fire you. So I'd suggest assessing whether you can make changes, and if not, find another job.



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08 Mar 2013, 2:18 am

Tyri0n wrote:
MissMoneypenny wrote:
OK, I'm back. To answer the question about my current employment situation, I work in a law office with minimal direct client interaction.

It's very difficult to give specific examples, because the people concerned are themselves very poor at giving specific examples.

The few examples I have been given, I'm sure you'll agree, are lame beyond belief. Things like how I didn't cc in one boss when I emailed as an attachment a letter to an outside party that he had signed and asked me to send, or how I'm supposed to have misinterpreted instructions on a couple of occasions. One time we were supposed to have an office clearout, but the clearing-out party we were going to have one evening never took place in the end, and one person made a fuss because she had a small pile of documents she'd wanted shredded. She could have asked me, or even walked a few paces outside her door to where there's a confidential shredding bin.

Other complaints are as a result of events that have only unfolded that way because of their own actions. For example, this same woman who wanted the shredding done sent me an email saying she needed a document formatted urgently. It was already late in the afternoon and I was already completely under the cosh trying to finish compiling a report that the head of our department needed in front of him to run through with the client by international conference call. I explained what I was in the middle of and said I had no capacity, and needed to finish what I was doing without getting side-tracked as the head honcho and this important client had already started their phone call, but in about 10 minutes' time I would liaise with the night secretary and explain to her what needed to be done. When I had finished the report and passed it to the department head, I immediately called the night secretary as promised, only for her to tell me she was already working on it! Not only did this woman choose to bypass me in this way, but she made a complaint that I hadn't "been responsive" and ensured she was serviced straight away.

Is this what they call passive-aggressive?

Everything else is "explained" to me in very general terms, such as that they want to see more "initiative" and "proactivitity", whatever they mean by that. However, I'm already so stretched working for 8 people that it's a constant battle to keep the urgent and important work turned around on time (a situation of which they are aware). Experience has shown that if I show my face at someone's door too often, they'll assume I'm not busy and will load me up with fiddly, nitpicky tasks that I don't always feel confident doing and really don't have time to accommodate anyway. Even when there is a lull period, I really NEED that time to play catch-up and recoup my personal energy resources.

I think others cope with the workload and ridiculously overstretched professional/support ratios by staying late into the evening but that isn't an option as I look after my sick partner evenings and weekends. And yes, someone made a fuss about that too when I got a phone call saying my bf was ill and I had to leave on time.


I'd suggest that this job is not a good fit for you. It's not only interpersonal things tripping you up; it's also job performance. You have trouble multitasking in a job that requires a lot of it. You are not willing to go out of your way to help people who need help. While your behavior itself may not have been unreasonable, I have an image in my head that you come across as if helping other people is a burden. I actually love helping people at work and go out of my way to do so -- because that means they are more likely to have my back when I need it. I almost never say no to anything; I'll just try to negotiate alternatives if there's a conflict. That's the proper conduct in the workplace.

Finally, you are working in a law office where people typically stay late until their work is done. You are unwilling to do this, which makes you appear like a slacker. Sure, you have a sick boyfriend, but if I'm a boss, I care about your performance. If I were the boss, I would call you into my office and try to negotiate a way for you to get your work done. If necessary, that may involve finding someone else to care for him, or it may involve you working extra hours on certain days or weekends. But it's important to be open and flexible, and it appears that you are not this way.

May I also suggest, you don't sound like you act very happily or amiably at work. No one wants to work with the dour, bitter person with a frown on her face who always does the minimum just to get by and doesn't care about others in the work place. Do you complain a lot also?

If you cannot fix these things, they will fire you. So I'd suggest assessing whether you can make changes, and if not, find another job.


It defence of the OP pretty sure "but in about 10 minutes' time I would liaise with the night secretary and explain to her what needed to be done." is "trying to negotiate alternatives when there's a conflict'' so she did conduct herself properly. In my opinion the colleague was making unreasonable demands and was actually being passive aggressive about the way she managed the issue.

Furthermore, many 'lawyers' do typically stay late until their work is done...but I could be wrong but I don't think she is a lawyer and therefore, it is highly unlikely that she is getting paid a wage worth warranting going above and beyond the standard job description of working the prescribed hours, nor would she be wanting to climb up the corporate ladder to become a partner as is in the forefront of most lawyers minds when they're bending over backwards for their employers. Miss moneypenny has a sick boyfriend, her work should be supporting her more, if anything, not chastising her for not being able to stay late to try and meet their unrealistic demands. People have lives outside work, and especially if they're caring for a sick relative or partner, or are sick themselves then the work should be trying to support them and not the other way around.

I don't know why you think she's got a bad attitude at work, I didn't see anything in her posts that implied that and even if she did well maybe it's because she's worried about her partner, and people are treating her like dirt! And IF you were my boss, I'd think you were an as*hole! May you never have anything to manage outside your work which affects your ability to put 110% in your work life, because then you might be really sorry that you set such high expectations of yourself and others.

To Missmoneypenny, it doesn't sound like a very pleasant environment for you to be working in, and I suggest you start looking for work elsewhere. It seems to be you're being bullied and having worked in a place like that I know it's not a good thing for your state of mind and it's the last thing you need when you've got family problems and everything else to deal with.

Good luck.