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whirlingmind
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14 Mar 2013, 12:40 pm

I post (again) the following link to a table listing the almost identical traits: http://www.whale.to/a/table_a.htm

You are also discounting the different sources of contamination by mercury and the different types of mercury, their different effects and how the body processes them:

http://labmed.ascpjournals.org/content/ ... 4.full.pdf

This means that potentially there are different symptoms according to the level of toxicity and how it was absorbed. There is also the effect of physiological (and as I've said earlier up the thread) genetic differences and predisposition between individuals. (And nowhere have I said I am only talking about vaccines, or even specifically vaccines, I am interested in the possible causal effect by any mercury [indeed any environmental toxin] on autism). Do not be misled by specific links to information I have posted.

http://www.idph.state.ia.us/idph_univer ... d=0&TOCId={FF03114A-842D-47EF-B07B-E57CA8A3CA21}

So listing a long list of all possible symptoms of mercury poisoning and trying to deflect from the fact that it is a possible cause, is...what's the term...oh yes STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!

I think we will have to agree to differ in our approach to this, I know what open-minded truly means, you apparently do not.


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Last edited by whirlingmind on 14 Mar 2013, 1:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

whirlingmind
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14 Mar 2013, 12:53 pm

http://harvardmagazine.com/2004/05/merc ... brain.html

Quote:
Today those babies, born on the Danish Faroe Islands in the North Atlantic, are teenagers—and living testaments to mercury poisoning. In two recent papers published in the Journal of Pediatrics, Philippe Grandjean, adjunct professor of environmental health at the School of Public Health, has begun unraveling mercury’s toxic effect on their brains.

His results confirm that children appear most at risk in the womb, where mercury seems to deform the brain’s fragile architecture and upset the maturation and migration of brain cells. But Grandjean also found that mercury could threaten children’s nervous systems well into adolescence. "What we are finding out is that mercury is very parallel to lead," Grandjean says. "Such pollutants are particularly worrisome because, once they’ve done the damage to the developing brain, the child will have to live with that for the rest of his life.”


And here's a government source for you: http://www.epa.gov/hg/effects.htm from the United States Environmental Protection Agency, in which it states that methylmercury causes
Quote:
Impacts on cognitive thinking, memory, attention, language, and fine motor and visual spatial skills have been seen in children exposed to methylmercury in the womb.
and also that it is implicated in
Quote:
impaired neurological development.


I'm off to another thread now, I think we've debated this one dry! 8O


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kamiyu910
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14 Mar 2013, 2:03 pm

whirlingmind wrote:
I post (again) the following link to a table listing the almost identical traits: http://www.whale.to/a/table_a.htm


The problem with whale.to is that it is well known to twist facts and information to suit their agenda. I cannot trust at face value anything they post.


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eric76
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14 Mar 2013, 2:56 pm

whirlingmind wrote:
I post (again) the following link to a table listing the almost identical traits: http://www.whale.to/a/table_a.htm

You are also discounting the different sources of contamination by mercury and the different types of mercury, their different effects and how the body processes them:

http://labmed.ascpjournals.org/content/ ... 4.full.pdf

This means that potentially there are different symptoms according to the level of toxicity and how it was absorbed. There is also the effect of physiological (and as I've said earlier up the thread) genetic differences and predisposition between individuals. (And nowhere have I said I am only talking about vaccines, or even specifically vaccines, I am interested in the possible causal effect by any mercury [indeed any environmental toxin] on autism). Do not be misled by specific links to information I have posted.

http://www.idph.state.ia.us/idph_univer ... d=0&TOCId={FF03114A-842D-47EF-B07B-E57CA8A3CA21}


Nobody is arguing that Autism and Mercury Poisoning do not have similar effects. Quite the opposite. But having similar effects does not mean that they are at all related.

Quote:
So listing a long list of all possible symptoms of mercury poisoning and trying to deflect from the fact that it is a possible cause, is...what's the term...oh yes STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!

I think we will have to agree to differ in our approach to this, I know what open-minded truly means, you apparently do not.


Hmmm. You not only do not understand the meaning of "open minded", you also don't understand the meaning of "straw man argument".

Open minded means that you are willing to consider other ideas -- it does not mean that you consider all ideas more or less equal. Closed minded means that you have already decided what you are going to believe and that you will consider no other ideas at all.

As for a straw man argument, that is where you distort or misrepresent what you are trying to argue against into something else that you can more easily argue against. In this case, we are arguing about the similarities of the symptoms of mercury poisoning and Autism. You are arguing that the similarities are such that they may be related and that the differences are not important while I argue that there is more to it than just the similarities in symptoms. There is no straw man argument here.



whirlingmind
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14 Mar 2013, 6:15 pm

Quote:
The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person 1 has position X.
Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[4]
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[3]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person 2 attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.


:lol: I'm laughing now :salut:

Tutty-bye. (just popped back to say hello)


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eric76
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14 Mar 2013, 6:27 pm

whirlingmind wrote:
Quote:
The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person 1 has position X.
Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[4]
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[3]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person 2 attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.


:lol: I'm laughing now :salut:

Tutty-bye. (just popped back to say hello)


That's nice. It's good to be able to laugh at yourself. Not everyone can do that.



whirlingmind
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14 Mar 2013, 6:41 pm

Funnily enough I do have enough humility to laugh at myself, unlike some others I could mention. However, I'm afraid I have to disappoint you on this occasion...I was laughing at how seriously and ridiculously you are behaving, and how you have such a closed mind. I get to the point that I find it too ridiculous and hilarious and I have to laugh. Happy to explain. :twisted:

...on that note, I really am taking my attention to other threads. Enjoy yourself, perhaps you and your straw man can have a heated debate instead :lol:


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eric76
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14 Mar 2013, 6:45 pm

whirlingmind wrote:
Funnily enough I do have enough humility to laugh at myself, unlike some others I could mention. However, I'm afraid I have to disappoint you on this occasion...I was laughing at how seriously and ridiculously you are behaving, and how you have such a closed mind. I get to the point that I find it too ridiculous and hilarious and I have to laugh. Happy to explain. :twisted:

...on that note, I really am taking my attention to other threads. Enjoy yourself, perhaps you and your straw man can have a heated debate instead :lol:


You should be laughing at yourself. My argument is by no means a straw man argument.

If you think it is a straw man argument, then it is up to you to show that I have somehow distorted your position and then argued against that distortion. Just what I have distorted about your position?



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14 Mar 2013, 6:51 pm

whirlingmind wrote:
Funnily enough I do have enough humility to laugh at myself, unlike some others I could mention. However, I'm afraid I have to disappoint you on this occasion...I was laughing at how seriously and ridiculously you are behaving, and how you have such a closed mind. I get to the point that I find it too ridiculous and hilarious and I have to laugh. Happy to explain. :twisted:

...on that note, I really am taking my attention to other threads. Enjoy yourself, perhaps you and your straw man can have a heated debate instead :lol:


I'm really confused by your comments... I went back and read the comments again and I still can't find a strawman.
I have also read the mercury poisoning/autism traits and see them as rather different. There is of course a possibility of mercury having something to do with some cases of autism, but the evidence I've seen says it is highly unlikely because of how mercury does to the brain vs what they've studied in autistic brains.
Just because there seems to be a correlation to you does not make it have a higher possibility. Basically saying, there are many other illness that also have very similar symptoms to other illnesses, but it doesn't mean they have the same cause.


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14 Mar 2013, 6:57 pm

lonerchild9 wrote:
Why do people actually believe this? what I don't get is that a lot of aspies tend to have genius IQ's. How could some one who has a genius IQ have brain damage from mercury? If you go to you tube, and type in "mercury in vaccines" you find tons of video's with all this propaganda.

Does any one have any knowledge on mad hatter syndrome and how it compares to autism. Because I think that's what really needs to be looked at here.


You are only focusing on one aspect of autism which is the highest functioning form.

Go get a metal allergy test. It's not just about mercury.



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15 Mar 2013, 5:56 am

Here are a number of comments (none mine) and links taken from below a journalistic article about vaccinations:

Quote:
http://www.rescuepost.com/files/gr-autism_and_vaccines_world_special_report1.pdf


Quote:
http://interactivetimeline.com/653/validation-timeline/


Quote:
I have found a very important document and would like you to take a look at it. I downloaded the study, Theoretical aspects of autism: Causes—A review Helen V. Ratajczak


Quote:
And my son has autism. He also has damage to his brain's central auditory nervous system that extends from his brain stem to his frontal cerebral cortex. They cannot test for this injury until the age of six because it is a "functional" examination. He has 90% damage to his area of the brain and major connectivity malformations.

Thing is, this brain *injury* is very specific. It is caused due to an encephalopathy. My son had a 75 word vocabulary with sign language and was charted in his med records as being above mark for neuro-development. After being vaccinated with 9 vaccines he couldn't speak for 3 years - not wouldn't and he subsequently received an autism diagnosis. I don't think that vaccines are the trigger for all cases of autism but I certainly think that they are the trigger for my son's diagnosis.

Vaccines certainly cause encephalopathy. I could list a long list of studies that prove this but I'll just list one link a US government site for evidence.

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Vaccine Injury Table
http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation ... table.html

Encephalopathy certainly can place a child on the autistic spectrum. Again I can list a bunch of peer-review here but I'll stick to what the government says on this as well.

Again from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

"From: Bowman, David (HRSA) [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 5:22 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: HRSA Statement

David,

In response to your most recent inquiry, HRSA has the following statement:

The government has never compensated, nor has it ever been ordered to compensate, any case based on a determination that autism was actually
caused by vaccines.
We have compensated cases in which children exhibited an encephalopathy, or general brain disease. Encephalopathy
may be accompanied by a medical progression of an array of symptoms including autistic behavior, autism, or seizures.

Some children who have been compensated for vaccine injuries may have shown signs of autism before the decision to compensate, or may
ultimately end up with autism or autistic symptoms, but we do not track cases on this basis.


Regards,

David Bowman
Office of Communications
Health Resources and Services Administration
301-443-3376"

Summary

Vaccines do not cause autism.

Vaccines cause encephalopathy which progress into autism.
This brain injury pattern is not tracked so the number of children affected is unknown.

Our children deserve better answers then this. And this semantic word game isn't going to work. Both sides need to lower the armer, stop the name calling and find answers so other children might be spared.

I hope your children's path for recovery is speedy and your family can find some joy in the midst of chaos that autism seems to bring.

Regards

www.autismrawdata.net


Quote:
Some of the latest 'speculation' driven by research findings indicate that there are varying phenotypes of autism and how children arrive at the point of time of diagnosis may indeed take a multifactorial route.

One of the analogies used is that ASD may present in some ways as to cancer. That is there are differing environmental factors interplaying with a genetic susceptibility.

Thus simplistic equations offered and believed to be discounted by the sledge hammer of epidemiology / statistics are yet to be fully explored.


Quote:
Vaccines are never tested in realistic conditions before releasing them to the public. How do we know that the immature immune system can withstand the onslaught of multiple viruses injected into the bloodstream? We don't.

Each vaccine is tested by itself in subjects who are not infants or tiny children. So when the vaccines are administered in my children, with a number of vaccines given at one time, and as early as the first day of life, these are not conditions which have been tested and proven. My children become test subjects. And there's no follow-up to see what the result might have been.

The autism epidemic started in about 1990. Scientists are coming to accept the idea that there are environmental triggers for autism. The question becomes, what changed in our environment at about that time that could be a causing factor? The number of vaccines expected for tiny children went up substantially beginning about then.


Quote:
“Thalidomide and the Power of the Drug Companies by Sjostrom and Nilsson (1972) where it states that "Every biologist knows that within a group of living organisms there is always an individual variation in the sensitivity towards, for example, a poison or a drug. Because of natural biological variation some individuals are affected more than others and some are perhaps not affected at all." p.162

So responsible scientific journalism, if it is responsible and scientific, requires inclusion of reports on sensitive subsets of children. Take Hanna Poling, for instance. See http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/ ... -that.html

Julie Gerberding, currently being paid by Merck as President of Vaccines, admits that vaccines cause autism. In sdtech's example I’ll add that Dr. Jon Poling was prepared to present evidence to the vaccine board but they quickly settled. His daughter had a pre-existing mitochondrial defect but toxins like you find in vaccinations are known to cause mitochondrial defects so this would be a logical path of research for the CDC.


Quote:
http://vactruth.com/2012/01/05/argentina-gsk-vaccine-trial/
http://vactruth.com/2012/01/14/dies-in-mothers-arms/
http://vactruth.com/2011/08/23/vaccine- ... noxynol-9/

HPV vaccine, pneumococcal vaccines, DPT vaccines, and Hep B vaccines, all contain aluminum! The aluminum containing vaccines have ALL been associated with sudden deaths. Just look at the VAERS database for confirmation. Most of the marketed flu innoculations contain nonionic surfactants as allegedly "inactive" excipients, according to the CDC. But they are far from inactive. We are being defrauded and endangered.

“Vaccine Excipient & Media Summary”

“This section begins with a summary of the excipients included in licensed vaccines in the United States, as of the revision date at the bottom of the page. Excipients are inactive ingredient­s of a drug product necessary for production of a finished pharmaceut­ical formulatio­n.”

http://www­.cdc.gov/v­accines/pu­bs/pinkboo­k/download­s/appendic­es/b/excip­ient-table­-1.pdf
http://www­.cdc.gov/v­accines/pu­bs/pinkboo­k/download­s/appendic­es/b/excip­ient-table­-2.pdf

This is FRAUD pure and simple. Neurotoxic metals, endocrine disruptors­, phase transfer catalysts, ionophores­, and non-human DNA are NOT inactive.


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aautismgirl
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15 Mar 2013, 7:59 am

I agree. Mercury can not the cause of autism.



whirlingmind
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15 Mar 2013, 8:28 am

I am open-minded to either option being the case, I just would like categorical evidence to be convinced. I am applying this not only to mercury, in all its forms, but all potential toxins that can affect neurology. I believe it can only be a good thing to make information available, so that people can look at all sides.


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eric76
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15 Mar 2013, 8:30 am

whirlingmind wrote:
I am open-minded to either option being the case, I just would like categorical evidence to be convinced. I am applying this not only to mercury, in all its forms, but all potential toxins that can affect neurology. I believe it can only be a good thing to make information available, so that people can look at all sides.


Do you have any links to dictionaries or other sources that define "categorical evidence"?



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15 Mar 2013, 10:24 am

eric76 wrote:
whirlingmind wrote:
I am open-minded to either option being the case, I just would like categorical evidence to be convinced. I am applying this not only to mercury, in all its forms, but all potential toxins that can affect neurology. I believe it can only be a good thing to make information available, so that people can look at all sides.


Do you have any links to dictionaries or other sources that define "categorical evidence"?


I think you'll find, it means proof.


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whirlingmind
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15 Mar 2013, 10:32 am

A little more light reading for anyone interested:

Quote:
Findings released Friday showed that infant monkeys given vaccines officially recommended by the CDC and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) exhibited autism-like symptoms. Lead investigator Laura Hewitson of the University of Pittsburgh and colleagues presented study results at the International Meeting for Autism Research (IMFAR) in London. Safety studies of medicines are typically conducted in monkeys prior to use in humans, yet such basic research on the current childhood vaccination regimen has never before been done.


Quote:
The group's request for research echoes that of Dr. Bernadine Healy, Former NIH Director, in a CBS interview earlier this week. She asserted that public health officials have been too quick to dismiss an autism-vaccine connection when the research has been insufficient. The government recently conceded a federal vaccine court case which agreed that a child regressed into autism as a result of 9 vaccines given on one day.


A primate model for autism using the U.S. children's immunization schedule was unveiled at the International Meeting For Autism Research (IMFAR) this weekend. The research underscores the critical need for studies into vaccine safety and the immune and mitochondrial dysfunction of autistic children. The National Autism Association (NAA) questions why the government hasn't undertaken these vital studies and why researchers have had to depend on private money to perform this critical science that will surely impact the health of millions of children worldwide.

Using infant macaque monkeys, University of Pittsburgh's Dr. Laura Hewitson, Ph.D., described how vaccinated animals, when compared to unvaccinated animals, showed significant neurodevelopmental deficits and "significant associations between specific aberrant social and non-social behaviors, isotope binding, and vaccine exposure."

Researchers also reported, "vaccinated animals exhibited progressively severe chronic active inflammation whereas unexposed animals did not" and found "many significant differences in the GI tissue gene expression profiles between vaccinated and unvaccinated animals." Gastrointestinal issues are a common symptom of children with regressive autism.

NAA calls for the NIH to conduct large scale, non-epidemiological studies into the biomedical symptoms surrounding young children and all vaccines, including those containing the mercury-based preservative thimerosal and other additives like aluminum.

This request for further research echoes that of Dr. Bernadine Healy, Former NIH Director in a CBS interview earlier this week. "I think public health officials have been too quick to dismiss the hypothesis as 'irrational,' without sufficient studies of causation...without studying the population that got sick," Healy said. "I have not seen major studies that focus on 300 kids who got autistic symptoms within a period of a few weeks of the vaccines."

Quote:
Recently the government's vaccine court conceded the case of Hannah Poling, admitting that vaccines triggered her regression into autism by exacerbating mitochondrial dysfunction. "The recent Poling case and this new research provide further evidence that the CDC has fallen down on their job to protect children from harm. The biomedical research to date suggests that parental reports of regression following vaccination is not only plausible, but likely in certain individuals," said Scott Bono, NAA Chairman. "To date, the CDC has conducted no safety testing on the possible harmful effects of simultaneously administering multiple vaccines to infants, and has steadfastly refused to state a preference for mercury-free vaccines to be given to children and pregnant women. It's time for HHS and Congress to step in and take vaccine safety away from the CDC."


Full article here:

http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Inf ... n-Primates


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