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Anomiel
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24 Mar 2013, 6:06 am

Thanks for linking to the other tests :D My AQ is 39.
I'm not posting the results of the personality one as it's kind of inaccurate like you said, but I scored higher than average on paranoid and schizoid and very high on schizotypal.

Raziel wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
Well relatives to people that have schizophrenia have a higher chance of being somewhere on the schizophrenia-spectrum.


Well here the problems already starts: it's my half-brother (he passed away several years ago), so he had a different mother than me. My mom told me that in his moms family there are some schizophrenics and I have no idea if this is true. I just know that we have no other schizophrenics in my family I know of.
But maybe my dad had some genes and his mom and out came someone with schizophrenia, who knows...!


Yes that is a tricky situation, would have been much easier to know for sure if it would have been otherwise :/ But if you do find traits from the schizophrenia-spectrum applies to you, there could be a possibility to be on it even with no apparent relatives, it's not uncommon with recessive genes, like you mentioned. Are the things you experience similar in any way to him is maybe a more important question than if you had the exact same genes.

Raziel wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
I guess StPD can look similar with autism in childhood, if schizophrenia can... This info actually explains why they used to call Asperger's syndrome "childhood schizophrenia" which I didn't understand before.


I also heard that there is a big overlap in symptoms between the negative symptoms in schizophrenia and ASD.
Autistics even show more symptoms asocioated with "negative symptoms" than schizophrenics themselfs.
Also I read that StPD mostly reminds on the symptoms of schizophrenic residuum, schizophrenic symptoms that stay after a psychosis.
So, the main difference between ASD and StPD is, that you also have some "positive symptoms" in StPD like magical thinking and so on, but the "negative symptoms" would look mostly the same, but would be more "severe" in ASD - very often even for the same reasons - like not knowing what to say in the in the right situation.


Thanks for telling me :) I didn't know about residual schizophrenia, wow. I agree with the big overlap in symptoms, there's even a similarity in the genes "Study highlights genetic likeness of autism, schizophrenia"
I think much could be explained with having traits and similarities maybe, like you say, I just don't know how many traits are considered normal or where the limit is.
For me (and you?) there's the additional issue with me most likely being bipolar (or atleast something that causes both mania and depression and adverse reactions to SSRIs) and paranoia and that kind of things do not only occur during mania but it makes it worse. The trajectory of my mania is getting worse (I'm 25 if it makes any difference) and I don't know what can be explained with what now.

Raziel wrote:
I know someone with severe StPD and his clothing is highly eccentric, also his behaviour. But I don't really think that he knows that and if he would that he would know what to wear to look "normal".
So to add to this confusion, people with StPD usually also score higher on the AQ and other autism tests.


Ahh I see. I was mostly going by the derogatory ways I've seen eccentricity described in autism vs the way it is described in schizotypy, but then the actual reality could be different and in other texts I haven't read yet and so on.
I did not know they ways I dress etc was considered eccentric before, but I have realized it now and like it. It might be because I feel like it and not disorders? I have had unnaturally colored hair for years and years, and I do not find it especially outrageous, but I know intellectually that most others find it odd, but it's not odd for me? I don't ever actually feel like it's weird.

Raziel wrote:
I also guess, that sometime it's a bit a matter of interpretation what to diagnose a person, because in psychiatry we have some tests, but no 100% objective tests like a blood test or something. So we just have the behavior to diagnose on.


Maybe some day the genes will be all figured out and there will be a simple bloodtest easily available in addition to observing behavior (though that couldn't check for environmental triggers) but that would probably be misused in some ways anyway... But then you could take it at least.

Raziel wrote:
They just mean the diagnostic overlap. So far I know you can diagnos StPD and ASD together, when there are also symptoms present like "magical thinking" and so on which you can not really explain with ASD. But mostly this isn't done and mostly just one of the is diagnosed, because of the strong overlap in many areas.

Here something to ASD and StPD:

4.1.2. Schizotypal PD wrote:
4.1.2. Schizotypal PD

Criterion A of schizotypal PD includes characteristics
identical with those for schizoid PD in combination with
psychotic-like symptoms. Just as in the case of schizoid PD,
there is an exclusion criterion B, which emphasizes that a
PDD must be ruled out before assigning a diagnosis of
schizotypal PD. There is considerable criterion overlap
between PDD/ASD and schizotypal PD; however, the
overlap is mainly caused by criteria shared with schizoid
PD. Criteria unique to schizotypal PD are those related to
psychotic-like experiences and magic thinking, which may
well be present in people with PDD/ASD, although not
among the core features. In our study group, only 1
individual met criteria for schizotypal PD. The low rate
may be caused by (1) the relatively young age (schizotypal
PD is believed to become more apparent with increasing
age), (2) high tolerability of “odd speech” (which is
relatively common in AS) by the interviewer, or (3) a true
low incidence. Interestingly, recurrent hallucinations without
having a psychotic disorder, which is a clear schizotypal
criterion, were experienced by 7 (13%) of 54 participants.


Personality disorders and autism spectrum disorders: what are the connections?


That changes things. I can see how they could be so similar that they would think it would be one or the other and not both. So glad you shared that study, thanks :D



Raziel
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24 Mar 2013, 8:50 am

Anomiel wrote:
Yes that is a tricky situation, would have been much easier to know for sure if it would have been otherwise :/ But if you do find traits from the schizophrenia-spectrum applies to you, there could be a possibility to be on it even with no apparent relatives, it's not uncommon with recessive genes, like you mentioned. Are the things you experience similar in any way to him is maybe a more important question than if you had the exact same genes.


Yes, well the StPD is not that often diagnosed because so far I know it's not that easy to diagnose, also because of a huge overlap to other diagnoses like Aspergers, Schizophrenia, other personality disorders etc.
I was missdx once a while ago (by a shrink I didn't come along with) and I don't want to run into something what I don't have.
I also don't know that much about my half-brother. I just know he had mainly hallucinations as schizophrenic symptoms and some social withdraw.
I scored on the SPQ especiall high on those five:

Ideas of reference: 5 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Excessive social anxiety: 7 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Odd beliefs or magical thinking: 5.5 out of 7 (unsure: 0)
Unusual perceptual experiences: 8 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Odd or eccentric behavior: 6 out of 7 (unsure: 0)


So those could actually be the same genes involved, just not so many and StPD instead.
But I still think there are some genetic overlap(!?) with ASD, because I also had speech delay as a child and was socially withdrawn and then suddenly my autistic symptoms decreased in puberty and young aduldhood and I mostly fall out. I still like routines, but I don't have any problems with social understanding anymore, like it is knows from autistics. I'm more a bit suspicous sometimes. But I always liked staying by myself (but also always had friends), so some things stayd the same.

Anomiel wrote:
Thanks for telling me :) I didn't know about residual schizophrenia, wow. I agree with the big overlap in symptoms, there's even a similarity in the genes "Study highlights genetic likeness of autism, schizophrenia"
I think much could be explained with having traits and similarities maybe, like you say, I just don't know how many traits are considered normal or where the limit is.


Yes that's what I also believe, but they still need to do a lot of research in this area.

Anomiel wrote:
For me (and you?) there's the additional issue with me most likely being bipolar (or atleast something that causes both mania and depression and adverse reactions to SSRIs) and paranoia and that kind of things do not only occur during mania but it makes it worse. The trajectory of my mania is getting worse (I'm 25 if it makes any difference) and I don't know what can be explained with what now.


First, your bipolar needs to be treated/get better to be diagnostical sure.
My old shrink who missdx me, wanted to diagnose me in a highly stressfull and traumatic time and this doesn't work. Those periods can sometimes go on for months or even years (In my case it was approx. two years) and there it is highly problematic to diagnose something and the people very often end up missdiagnosed. My new shrink is better and also waits and watches witch paitence how I develope. :D

Bipolar is not that of a big problem for me, that's why I've "just" a suspicion and also Bipolar II. So I have depressive episodes who are very unpleasent with higher mood afterwards that could be hypomania. I also don't have too many episodes. Last year I had 3. So I don't think my Bipolar(!?) would make that much trouble in finding out if ASD or StPD applies more in my case. So I've either Bipolar II or recurrent dpression, that's still not totally clear. My depressive episodes cause me a lot of trouble though, but I've also some mostly symptoms free periods.
Well I propably have to talk with my shrink about StPD, but I'm still a bit scared, I dunno. :oops:

Anomiel wrote:
It might be because I feel like it and not disorders? I have had unnaturally colored hair for years and years, and I do not find it especially outrageous, but I know intellectually that most others find it odd, but it's not odd for me? I don't ever actually feel like it's weird.


I'm no expert in StPD but I think it's a bit like that. I also know the feeling of feeling eccentric or finding that the world is somehow eccentric or knowing that something is considered as "strange", but for me personal it's "normal".

Anomiel wrote:
Maybe some day the genes will be all figured out and there will be a simple bloodtest easily available in addition to observing behavior (though that couldn't check for environmental triggers) but that would probably be misused in some ways anyway... But then you could take it at least.


Well maybe you have mostly genes that apply for two or several different disorders, that it'll propably mostly be environmental influences witch one you get and maybe sometimes you also have an overlapp in symptoms, so what to diagnose?
I think it'll make it easyer but wouldn't solve all problems. My experience is that disorders who can look similar in their symptoms usually turn out to have some connections to each other.

Anomiel wrote:
That changes things. I can see how they could be so similar that they would think it would be one or the other and not both. So glad you shared that study, thanks :D


We would need more research to answer this, but sadly the research done on StPD is just minor at the moment and also propably highly underdiagnosed. Well, I'll bring my SPQ to my shrink next time and there I'll see what he'll think about it. :?


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24 Mar 2013, 10:22 am

I scored quite low on STQ. I got 25. For some reason that makes me feel disappointed and sad. I thought I was over my "wanting a psychotic disorder" after my medication was increased but it turns out I'm just not as obsessed about it as I was before.

I don't understand why believing in telepathy or ESP is magical thinking. Lots of people believe in that stuff and I don't consider it significant unless you assume it is happening in a situation. For me I believe in mind reading so obviously I'm going to believe there's a possibility, even a 0.01% possibility at any given time, that somebody is reading my mind but I don't assume it's happening I just believe it could be happening because telepathy exists. I don't consider that to be the same as the "everybody's reading my mind" delusion.



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24 Mar 2013, 1:49 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
I scored quite low on STQ. I got 25. For some reason that makes me feel disappointed and sad. I thought I was over my "wanting a psychotic disorder" after my medication was increased but it turns out I'm just not as obsessed about it as I was before.


I know what you mean, I feel a bit the same about my AQ, because I was diagnosed with autism for several years and somehow I'm just not sure anymore if I have it. 8O
:?

The funny thing about our brain is that we can't really decide for ourselfs with path it is going to develop.

I don't really like the thought that I could habe something else instead. I talked today with a friend of mine about it, she has AS and I told her what I'm thinking. That I had autistic/autistic-like symptoms in childhood - that's very obvious and I have no doupt in that - and then I started to have more the development in teenage years/young aduldhood were it is typical for people with StPD what would make sence, especially if you take my AQ into account who suddenly got better and the fact that my half-brother was schizophrenic. So there is a high possibility that I have some of the genes. I remember I told them once when I got checked my special interest is religion. I'm not even very religious myself, but I've been always interested in other religions, but I have to agree, that I propably have some odd believes. So even at that time I already had some strange "mixture". So there seems to be some symptome overlap in some cases like the schizophrenia experts say, but sadly I don't find any reports about it. :?

seaturtleisland wrote:
I don't understand why believing in telepathy or ESP is magical thinking. Lots of people believe in that stuff and I don't consider it significant unless you assume it is happening in a situation. For me I believe in mind reading so obviously I'm going to believe there's a possibility, even a 0.01% possibility at any given time, that somebody is reading my mind but I don't assume it's happening I just believe it could be happening because telepathy exists. I don't consider that to be the same as the "everybody's reading my mind" delusion.


The exact diagnostic criteria you are referring to is: "Odd beliefs or magical thinking, influencing behavior and inconsistent with subcultural norms;" it's like this in the ICD-10 and also pretty much the same in the DSM-IV. So it's actually "odd beliefs or magical thinking" and I guess in this case it's more an odd belief. I also identify more with "odd beliefs" than with "magical thinking". A person also doesn't have to have StPD if they just belief in UFOs, you have to have more than that and even if you have many "odd beliefs" that's not enough because it's just one diagnostic criteria.

The diagnostic cirterias in the DSM-IV of StPD is:

DSM-IV StPD wrote:
"A pervasive pattern of social and interpersonal deficits marked by acute discomfort with, and reduced capacity for, close relationships as well as by cognitive or perceptual distortions and eccentricities of behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

- ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference)
- odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or "sixth sense"; in children and - - adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations)
- unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions
- odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped)
- suspiciousness or paranoid ideation
- inappropriate or constricted affect
- behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar
- lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
- excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self

Does not occur exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia, a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, another Psychotic Disorder, or a Pervasive Developmental Disorder.

Note: If criteria are met prior to the onset of Schizophrenia, add "Premorbid," e.g., "Schizotypal Personality Disorder (Premorbid)." "


According to the SPQ I especially fit in the bold ones.

So you need to have at least five of those symptoms and even if you have you need to rule out psychicotic conditions and PDD in order to diagnose it. I would say the overlap between StPD and ASD are especially those criteria:
- odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped)
- inappropriate or constricted affect
- behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar
- lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives


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24 Mar 2013, 3:34 pm

Raziel wrote:
I don't really like the thought that I could habe something else instead. I talked today with a friend of mine about it, she has AS and I told her what I'm thinking. That I had autistic/autistic-like symptoms in childhood - that's very obvious and I have no doupt in that - and then I started to have more the development in teenage years/young aduldhood were it is typical for people with StPD what would make sence, especially if you take my AQ into account who suddenly got better and the fact that my half-brother was schizophrenic.


I would consider your relative's condition to be a greater indicator. I have experienced what you described with rapid growth in my teenage years. I've been regressing a little bit in the past few months but that is probably a developing comorbid depression or anxiety disorder.

Raziel wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
I scored quite low on STQ. I got 25. For some reason that makes me feel disappointed and sad. I thought I was over my "wanting a psychotic disorder" after my medication was increased but it turns out I'm just not as obsessed about it as I was before.


I know what you mean, I feel a bit the same about my AQ, because I was diagnosed with autism for several years and somehow I'm just not sure anymore if I have it. 8O
:?


I was actually trying to convince myself I was going to develop a psychotic disorder because it made me feel better to believe that. I remember trying to come up with plans to try and make it happen. I was thinking about inducing amphetamine psychosis using Adderall and hoping it would become permanent. Even if it didn't I'd still get temporary effects. I'm a lot less obsessive about that thanks to my medication increase but it still seems desirable.

I end up listing as many brief isolated experiences that are really insignificant just to try and build up a straw case. It's pathetic. I know that many healthy people experience isolated incidents of hallucinations in their lives without ever developing a disorder and one or two in a lifetime is normal. I counted about 14 brief ones that were only about 3 seconds long each and tried to convince myself that it meant I was going to get what I wanted. I counted one longer one once I heard about it.

Have you ever found yourself grasping at straws just to alleviate the sense of disappointment and sadness?



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24 Mar 2013, 5:15 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
Raziel wrote:
I don't really like the thought that I could habe something else instead. I talked today with a friend of mine about it, she has AS and I told her what I'm thinking. That I had autistic/autistic-like symptoms in childhood - that's very obvious and I have no doupt in that - and then I started to have more the development in teenage years/young aduldhood were it is typical for people with StPD what would make sence, especially if you take my AQ into account who suddenly got better and the fact that my half-brother was schizophrenic.


I would consider your relative's condition to be a greater indicator. I have experienced what you described with rapid growth in my teenage years. I've been regressing a little bit in the past few months but that is probably a developing comorbid depression or anxiety disorder.


Yes that's true, I'm meaning more the entire picture.
Because it's not just that my autistic symptoms got better, because everything got very rapidly. I was 14 at that time and had a big sudden symptoms shift going on for months. My mom even thought at that time that I'm on drugs. But I wasn't. 8O

seaturtleisland wrote:
Have you ever found yourself grasping at straws just to alleviate the sense of disappointment and sadness?


Well, I'm really scared about the fact that I could have something similar like my half-brother, because he commited suicide several years ago and for my mom schizophrenia is like the worst thing ever. :cry:
Okay, StPD is not schizophrenia, but it's still close.

Also I still don't get it quite 100% how my childhood would fit into there and how everything just adds up. Maybe when my shrink also believes that this is possible I'm trying to find an expert in this are to be sure, I still dunno. But back then I did the same thing with autism, I went to an expert who said "yes, you have it" and everything made sence back than and now I'm unsure. :?
So maybe getting an expert opinion is a good thing but of course they still can't look into your head, I dunno.
At the moment I'm just insecure and messed up because of this situation and my next appointment with my shrink is end of april because I'm just there all 6 weeks and the last time I was there I already had this thought sometimes, but it was more like a far away possibilty, but now it is a lot more serious for me. :?

Also I'm a bit scared talking to him about this, propably because of my family background. He knows that my half-brother had schizophrenia, but that's it. But I'm still a bit confused, I also should mention that my brother has ADHD and my grandma propably OCPD and my cousin could have AS, so there is still a possibility of being more on the autism spectrum or being some weird mixture. I dunno.


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24 Mar 2013, 8:05 pm

Raziel wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
Raziel wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
Have you ever found yourself grasping at straws just to alleviate the sense of disappointment and sadness?


Well, I'm really scared about the fact that I could have something similar like my half-brother, because he commited suicide several years ago and for my mom schizophrenia is like the worst thing ever. :cry:
Okay, StPD is not schizophrenia, but it's still close.

Also I still don't get it quite 100% how my childhood would fit into there and how everything just adds up. Maybe when my shrink also believes that this is possible I'm trying to find an expert in this are to be sure, I still dunno. But back then I did the same thing with autism, I went to an expert who said "yes, you have it" and everything made sence back than and now I'm unsure. :?
So maybe getting an expert opinion is a good thing but of course they still can't look into your head, I dunno.
At the moment I'm just insecure and messed up because of this situation and my next appointment with my shrink is end of april because I'm just there all 6 weeks and the last time I was there I already had this thought sometimes, but it was more like a far away possibilty, but now it is a lot more serious for me. :?


Did you get anything else out of your Autism diagnosis besides clarity?

When you say shrink are you referring to a psychologist or a psychiatrist by the way? I don't usually use the word shrink because it sounds derogatory to whoever is seeing the shrink? I feel more comfortable saying psychiatrist, psychologist, or therapist.

Lets say you bring this up with your psychiatrist/psychologist. Are you currently having troubles as a result of a suspected Schizotypal Personality Disorder or are you just afraid that you could have problems in the future? If you're just concerned about the future I'm not sure what a psychiatrist or psychologist could do. I would think that the most s/he could do is help you keep an eye on things to be prepared in case something does come up. If you are already having problems with it you'd probably get more of an immediate benefit. There's something already present to treat rather than just a high risk that something will show up.
I
Are you just thinking of bringing it up for clarity? Are you expecting to get something more than that out of it?



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25 Mar 2013, 1:13 am

seaturtleisland wrote:
When you say shrink are you referring to a psychologist or a psychiatrist by the way? I don't usually use the word shrink because it sounds derogatory to whoever is seeing the shrink? I feel more comfortable saying psychiatrist, psychologist, or therapist.


I have a psychiatrist and I see him all 6-8 weeks. I don't have a therapist.
Oh okay, good to know, english is not my native language. :?

seaturtleisland wrote:
Lets say you bring this up with your psychiatrist/psychologist. Are you currently having troubles as a result of a suspected Schizotypal Personality Disorder or are you just afraid that you could have problems in the future? If you're just concerned about the future I'm not sure what a psychiatrist or psychologist could do. I would think that the most s/he could do is help you keep an eye on things to be prepared in case something does come up. If you are already having problems with it you'd probably get more of an immediate benefit. There's something already present to treat rather than just a high risk that something will show up.
I
Are you just thinking of bringing it up for clarity? Are you expecting to get something more than that out of it?


Well I hope to understand myself better and my problems.

I got a lot out of my autism diagnosis, no matter if it was the most correct diagnosis, because I still have some autistic sides on me. I met other autistic people and I could easily comunicate with them, but also some of them noticed that I'm somehow different but before I just thought that's me. It never occourt to me that I could have a disoder who overlapps in many areas, but is still somehow different. Also books about autism still helped me. I have religious side on me and odd thinking but I can keep it to myself and usually I don't talk about stuff like this. I'n aware of the fact that it's just me thinking that.

I'm a bit afraid of the fact what it could have for consequenses or that he could think that I've fullblown schizophrenia and wants to give me antipsychotics or something. I have to say that I made very bad experiences with my last psychiatrist (I always just had psychiatrists). I had a trauma at that time (luckily it was just a temporaty thing but still lasted two years for me to come mostly out of it) and because of that I deffinitly had this problem but very severe: "excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self". I just couldn't stop it, especially towards her because she reminded me on the trauma (because of the environment it happend, long story) and she was giving me a rough time because she thought that I'm like this on purpose. 8O
But I just couldn't stop my anxiety. :?
Then I got my new psychiatrist and this changed and also my trauma got better very fast.
But I'm still a bit nervous around psychiatrists, I even had that before my traumatic insidence. :oops:
It is highly difficult for me to open up there.

Even there - with psychiatrists - I like to keep things for myself. But I still have good friends, two, one of them with Asperger. I talked with her about it and she is not sure in my case, either way. But we both think it's either ASD or StPD. It's also not like I'm walking around talking about magical thinking all the time, no. But now I've an AQ of 24, so if I take that as an indicator that just some autistic symptoms are present, I'm not sure if this could explain my problems and behaviour well enough, but maybe I just have a mood disorder in addition or something. Maybe ASD still explains it, I dunno. I seem to fit five of the diagnostic criteria of StPD and not all of them can be explained well enough with ASD, just some. That's how I see it, but there is also no doubt that I had some developmental problems and dyslexia as child. I was also a very quiet child, late talker, had trouble with too many people around me, but even back than I sometimes had the thought that other people can read my mind. Maybe I've just a bit symptoms of both? Like McDD.


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25 Mar 2013, 11:48 am

Here other tests:

EQ: 36
SQ: 46


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25 Mar 2013, 11:57 am

Raziel wrote:
Yes, well the StPD is not that often diagnosed because so far I know it's not that easy to diagnose, also because of a huge overlap to other diagnoses like Aspergers, Schizophrenia, other personality disorders etc.
I was missdx once a while ago (by a shrink I didn't come along with) and I don't want to run into something what I don't have.
I also don't know that much about my half-brother. I just know he had mainly hallucinations as schizophrenic symptoms and some social withdraw.
I scored on the SPQ especiall high on those five:

Ideas of reference: 5 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Excessive social anxiety: 7 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Odd beliefs or magical thinking: 5.5 out of 7 (unsure: 0)
Unusual perceptual experiences: 8 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Odd or eccentric behavior: 6 out of 7 (unsure: 0)


So those could actually be the same genes involved, just not so many and StPD instead.
But I still think there are some genetic overlap(!?) with ASD, because I also had speech delay as a child and was socially withdrawn and then suddenly my autistic symptoms decreased in puberty and young aduldhood and I mostly fall out. I still like routines, but I don't have any problems with social understanding anymore, like it is knows from autistics. I'm more a bit suspicous sometimes. But I always liked staying by myself (but also always had friends), so some things stayd the same.


Hm but then again not everyone with ASD have to check every symptom ever, and I think there is far too much focus on the social part from everyone concerning autism. Maybe look at the other parts of autism and think about if it feels similar to how you are or if it's very different. Then again, if there is nothing having an autism diagnosis could give you in terms of what help you would need, but you do have the problems of another diagnosis and could use that help, then it is easy to see what matters more.

Raziel wrote:
First, your bipolar needs to be treated/get better to be diagnostical sure.
My old shrink who missdx me, wanted to diagnose me in a highly stressfull and traumatic time and this doesn't work. Those periods can sometimes go on for months or even years (In my case it was approx. two years) and there it is highly problematic to diagnose something and the people very often end up missdiagnosed. My new shrink is better and also waits and watches witch paitence how I develope. :D


You're so right in that the potential for misdiagnosis is high if they do not count in all variables. Sorry that happened to you, but glad that you understood that as not everyone that is in that situation are capable of doing that legwork themselves and it's just unfair all around, for both the psychiatrist and the patient.
Yes as bipolar can be a psychotic disorder I guess StPD looks quite similar to being autistic + having one of those... I agree that I should probably get treatment, I always planned to if I felt the need to start taking medication for the mania - as psychiatrists never helped my depressions, so whatever, and those are not as deep as they were before which I am so thankful for.

The reason I say "most likely bipolar" is because 1. I'm not a professional so I can not diagnose which mood-disorder it is. 2. I never talked to my psychiatrists about the mania. Got diagnosed with major depressive disorder but that is incorrect and the (many tries with different) SSRIs were Not a Good Idea. 3. Stopped going to psychiatrists a long time ago.
I did not seek out a diagnosis after I figured this out as it would only be useful if I actually needed it, to get medications etc. Otherwise the stigma would be worse than the potential for help. I do know I'm in a privileged position, as there are much worse cases and many don't have the luxury of choosing when/if to get help because they are subjected to involuntary hospitalizations etc but I have managed to mostly avoid those.

Raziel wrote:
Bipolar is not that of a big problem for me, that's why I've "just" a suspicion and also Bipolar II. So I have depressive episodes who are very unpleasent with higher mood afterwards that could be hypomania. I also don't have too many episodes. Last year I had 3. So I don't think my Bipolar(!?) would make that much trouble in finding out if ASD or StPD applies more in my case. So I've either Bipolar II or recurrent dpression, that's still not totally clear. My depressive episodes cause me a lot of trouble though, but I've also some mostly symptoms free periods.
Well I propably have to talk with my shrink about StPD, but I'm still a bit scared, I dunno. :oops:


No, I guess being bipolar would not interfere with figuring out if it's StPD or not as long as the mania was not extreme enough to cause psychosis. Even if you manage without the psychosis part I feel bad for you and everyone else that is bipolar but predominately depressed as SSRIs often don't work (but I don't know if they do in your case) if you're bipolar and if you're just bipolar (as opposed to unipolar, aka depressed, and you're not unipolar if you experience hypomania. No matter how seldom you have episodes. So there's no doubt there) enough to have that kind of brainwiring psychiatrists often don't get it and I don't think there are much research on it. Have you looked the alternatives to treating depression? I read you're scared of antipsychotics, but as they can (and should just, IMHO) be used short periods of time maybe set that up with a psychiatrist if it comes up, instead of just having to accept taking them long term? They can do lots of harm so I understand your hesitation... And then of course there's mood stabilizers which I would not want to take, as I enjoy the mania and don't have as much problem with depressions anymore to justify that, but which you might benefit from as they can help depression?

Raziel wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
Maybe some day the genes will be all figured out and there will be a simple bloodtest easily available in addition to observing behavior (though that couldn't check for environmental triggers) but that would probably be misused in some ways anyway... But then you could take it at least.


Well maybe you have mostly genes that apply for two or several different disorders, that it'll propably mostly be environmental influences witch one you get and maybe sometimes you also have an overlapp in symptoms, so what to diagnose?
I think it'll make it easyer but wouldn't solve all problems. My experience is that disorders who can look similar in their symptoms usually turn out to have some connections to each other.


I agree completely. But it would solve your questions about if you have any of the schizophrenia genes or not :)



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25 Mar 2013, 1:33 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
I scored quite low on STQ. I got 25. For some reason that makes me feel disappointed and sad. I thought I was over my "wanting a psychotic disorder" after my medication was increased but it turns out I'm just not as obsessed about it as I was before.


You can borrow my partners brother, who's schizophrenic and has ADHD among other things, for a week and I promise you will be completely cured of wanting that. We would have to sign some form of contract though because I don't want to be held accountable for how much he would wreck...



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25 Mar 2013, 1:37 pm

Anomiel wrote:
Hm but then again not everyone with ASD have to check every symptom ever, and I think there is far too much focus on the social part from everyone concerning autism. Maybe look at the other parts of autism and think about if it feels similar to how you are or if it's very different. Then again, if there is nothing having an autism diagnosis could give you in terms of what help you would need, but you do have the problems of another diagnosis and could use that help, then it is easy to see what matters more.


Yes, well I have to say ASD helps me to explain certain behaviours mainly in my childhood, but nowadays?
I dunno.
I read a lot about autism. Many books, articles, in forums etc.
It helped me to some degree pretty well, especially in my earlyer years, but more and more in explains me less.
I also don't go to autism-SHGs anymore - or just irregulary - because their problems are not really my problems anymore, to put it that way. I have the feeling that ASD explained my past pretty well, but it can't explain all my current problems, not even close.
Now my social understanding is pretty well - I was tested, it is in the normal range now - I have some routines and sometimes symptoms of overload, but also not really anymore since two years now.
So I seemed to have a "symptoms shift" in my teenage years and young adooldhood.
I don't have the feeling I changed that much, just minor changes, but somehow that lead to the fact that I don't feel anymore that ASD explains me well anymore. The last psychiatrists I saw asked to in approx. 80% of the cases right to beginn if I had a psychosis. I never had one, but I'm surprised that since a view years it's pretty much the first - or one of the first - questions they ask me. Very often they seem surprised when I say: "no". 8O
My current psychiatrist is the first one I told that my half-brother had schizophrenia and he just nooded. I had the feeling he is not surprised.
I also have the feeling I've many symptoms who are close to the schizophrenic spectrum and since I found out about a certain symptom overlapp in the schizophrenic spectrum and the autistic spectrum I think this could be also in my case and could explain my current symptoms to some degree better. I want to discuss this in my next setting with my psychiatrist.

Anomiel wrote:
You're so right in that the potential for misdiagnosis is high if they do not count in all variables. Sorry that happened to you, but glad that you understood that as not everyone that is in that situation are capable of doing that legwork themselves and it's just unfair all around, for both the psychiatrist and the patient.


I saw my old psychiatrist today in the train who missdx me. She said "hello" and smiled. I was totally surprised, I couldn't say a word, then I went back to my seat and to get remined on that time so that I got even tears in my eyes. :cry:
:(

Anomiel wrote:
Yes as bipolar can be a psychotic disorder I guess StPD looks quite similar to being autistic + having one of those... I agree that I should probably get treatment, I always planned to if I felt the need to start taking medication for the mania - as psychiatrists never helped my depressions, so whatever, and those are not as deep as they were before which I am so thankful for.


Yes, I think I have some schizotypal, autistic combination. Maybe one of those would apply better to me, possible, but maybe it's just a matter of debate. I dunno and I'm also no professionel.

Anomiel wrote:
The reason I say "most likely bipolar" is because 1. I'm not a professional so I can not diagnose which mood-disorder it is. 2. I never talked to my psychiatrists about the mania. Got diagnosed with major depressive disorder but that is incorrect and the (many tries with different) SSRIs were Not a Good Idea. 3. Stopped going to psychiatrists a long time ago.
I did not seek out a diagnosis after I figured this out as it would only be useful if I actually needed it, to get medications etc. Otherwise the stigma would be worse than the potential for help. I do know I'm in a privileged position, as there are much worse cases and many don't have the luxury of choosing when/if to get help because they are subjected to involuntary hospitalizations etc but I have managed to mostly avoid those.


Yes, I have the same thing. I've likely bipolar, but still not sure and this unsure situation, I don't like that. But maybe I've just have to live with the fact that some things I'll never find out for sure. There will be always something. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, I dunno.

Anomiel wrote:
No, I guess being bipolar would not interfere with figuring out if it's StPD or not as long as the mania was not extreme enough to cause psychosis.


Well, I guess if I ever had a psychosis, they just would diagnose me with schizoaffective in that case.
But because I never had one and still show certain symptoms out of the schizophrenic spectrum StPD would apply more. But again, I'm no professionel.

Anomiel wrote:
I read you're scared of antipsychotics, but as they can (and should just, IMHO) be used short periods of time maybe set that up with a psychiatrist if it comes up, instead of just having to accept taking them long term? They can do lots of harm so I understand your hesitation... And then of course there's mood stabilizers which I would not want to take, as I enjoy the mania and don't have as much problem with depressions anymore to justify that, but which you might benefit from as they can help depression?


I once took antipsychotics and I got a blepharospasm (a spasm of the eyelid). I had this for several months very severe.
I'm takeing Valdoxan at the moment, an agomelatonin from my psychiatrist. I'm very stable at the moment, but I also talked with my psychiatrist about lithium what would be an option, if I have very unpleasent times. But I never had a psychotic depression or a real mania, so he first wants to see how I'm doing and how it developes, he just knows me since a half year. He is also carefull in giving me meds, because I've had many and huge side effects in the past.


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25 Mar 2013, 4:03 pm

Anomiel wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
I scored quite low on STQ. I got 25. For some reason that makes me feel disappointed and sad. I thought I was over my "wanting a psychotic disorder" after my medication was increased but it turns out I'm just not as obsessed about it as I was before.


You can borrow my partners brother, who's schizophrenic and has ADHD among other things, for a week and I promise you will be completely cured of wanting that. We would have to sign some form of contract though because I don't want to be held accountable for how much he would wreck...


I'd probably have to 'borrow' his disorder (if that were even possible) to be cured of wanting it. I don't think watching someone suffering from it would be enough.



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25 Mar 2013, 9:01 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
seaturtleisland wrote:
I scored quite low on STQ. I got 25. For some reason that makes me feel disappointed and sad. I thought I was over my "wanting a psychotic disorder" after my medication was increased but it turns out I'm just not as obsessed about it as I was before.


You can borrow my partners brother, who's schizophrenic and has ADHD among other things, for a week and I promise you will be completely cured of wanting that. We would have to sign some form of contract though because I don't want to be held accountable for how much he would wreck...


I'd probably have to 'borrow' his disorder (if that were even possible) to be cured of wanting it. I don't think watching someone suffering from it would be enough.


Sorry, that was one of those things that were funny if everyone knew exactly what I know.
In his case it's not just him that is suffering, he has driven almost his entire family to mental breakdowns.

I just don't know what you mean. Why, if you don't mind me asking? 8O



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25 Mar 2013, 10:03 pm

Raziel wrote:
Yes, well I have to say ASD helps me to explain certain behaviours mainly in my childhood, but nowadays?
I dunno.
I read a lot about autism. Many books, articles, in forums etc.
It helped me to some degree pretty well, especially in my earlyer years, but more and more in explains me less.
I also don't go to autism-SHGs anymore - or just irregulary - because their problems are not really my problems anymore, to put it that way. I have the feeling that ASD explained my past pretty well, but it can't explain all my current problems, not even close.
Now my social understanding is pretty well - I was tested, it is in the normal range now - I have some routines and sometimes symptoms of overload, but also not really anymore since two years now.
So I seemed to have a "symptoms shift" in my teenage years and young adooldhood.
I don't have the feeling I changed that much, just minor changes, but somehow that lead to the fact that I don't feel anymore that ASD explains me well anymore.


Well if it doesn't explain you now, then it doesn't. Obviously it once did, but I think you can be ok moving away from that now if it does not give you anything. Not that you need my ok, just saying :)
Maybe it's like with schizoids where the "social ineptness" comes from not caring for social games and also lack of training, and now you do care a little more and have had more chance of training? Also schizoids have "autistic thinking" whatever that means (they might be more right than they know) and just generally being mistaken for aspies. And why I mention schizoids is because I've seen StPD described as "schizoid core with quirky schizotypal branches".


Raziel wrote:
The last psychiatrists I saw asked to in approx. 80% of the cases right to beginn if I had a psychosis. I never had one, but I'm surprised that since a view years it's pretty much the first - or one of the first - questions they ask me. Very often they seem surprised when I say: "no". 8O
My current psychiatrist is the first one I told that my half-brother had schizophrenia and he just nooded. I had the feeling he is not surprised.
I also have the feeling I've many symptoms who are close to the schizophrenic spectrum and since I found out about a certain symptom overlapp in the schizophrenic spectrum and the autistic spectrum I think this could be also in my case and could explain my current symptoms to some degree better. I want to discuss this in my next setting with my psychiatrist.


That does seem to imply that they for some reason would think you had suffered from it. But I don't know.
Maybe next time they bring it up, you can ask them (if you haven't already) why it is the first thing they ask, and why they do not seem surprised that you have relatives with schizophrenia, and then you don't need to worry about it and maybe they can give you some insight. I promise it will feel better no matter their answers. Maybe even mention that you have been thinking a lot about what they might mean with it, as it does not sounds like very happy thoughts and they can help you with the anxiety you have surrounding this. It is totally natural to be afraid but then there's the line where it becomes uncomfortable and I don't know how it feels like for you but you sound a little sad and you said you were afraid, anyway they are there to help even if they miss the mark sometimes (sometimes a lot).

Raziel wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
You're so right in that the potential for misdiagnosis is high if they do not count in all variables. Sorry that happened to you, but glad that you understood that as not everyone that is in that situation are capable of doing that legwork themselves and it's just unfair all around, for both the psychiatrist and the patient.


I saw my old psychiatrist today in the train who missdx me. She said "hello" and smiled. I was totally surprised, I couldn't say a word, then I went back to my seat and to get remined on that time so that I got even tears in my eyes. :cry:
:(


Oh. Wow :( That's got to have been hard. Maybe she doesn't understand she f****d up?

Raziel wrote:
Yes, I have the same thing. I've likely bipolar, but still not sure and this unsure situation, I don't like that. But maybe I've just have to live with the fact that some things I'll never find out for sure. There will be always something. Maybe I'm too pessimistic, I dunno.


But I do think you could find out many things for sure when you do choose to talk about this to a psychiatrist (I think it's a great idea that you're planning that) - they can tell you what they think, and if they also agree that you're a mix (as many people are) or whatever then that is what you "are". There are very few "pure" individuals. I mean you mentioned yourself it's not as easy as taking a bloodsample and at some point it becomes semantics. And then focusing on what area/s you need help in.

Raziel wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
I read you're scared of antipsychotics, but as they can (and should just, IMHO) be used short periods of time maybe set that up with a psychiatrist if it comes up, instead of just having to accept taking them long term? They can do lots of harm so I understand your hesitation... And then of course there's mood stabilizers which I would not want to take, as I enjoy the mania and don't have as much problem with depressions anymore to justify that, but which you might benefit from as they can help depression?


I once took antipsychotics and I got a blepharospasm (a spasm of the eyelid). I had this for several months very severe.
I'm takeing Valdoxan at the moment, an agomelatonin from my psychiatrist. I'm very stable at the moment, but I also talked with my psychiatrist about lithium what would be an option, if I have very unpleasent times. But I never had a psychotic depression or a real mania, so he first wants to see how I'm doing and how it developes, he just knows me since a half year. He is also carefull in giving me meds, because I've had many and huge side effects in the past.


Don't have much to say about that but: Ok antipsychotics are probably a bad idea most of the time. Sideeffects suck. Very reasonable plan. And a probably good psychiatrist! :D



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26 Mar 2013, 2:13 am

Anomiel wrote:
Well if it doesn't explain you now, then it doesn't. Obviously it once did, but I think you can be ok moving away from that now if it does not give you anything. Not that you need my ok, just saying :)
Maybe it's like with schizoids where the "social ineptness" comes from not caring for social games and also lack of training, and now you do care a little more and have had more chance of training? Also schizoids have "autistic thinking" whatever that means (they might be more right than they know) and just generally being mistaken for aspies. And why I mention schizoids is because I've seen StPD described as "schizoid core with quirky schizotypal branches".


I would be surprised if ASD would be all wrong, I see it more like McDD, something else wouldn't make too much sence too me when I look at my childhood, or StPD with autistic features (as child). The exact category doesn't matter that much. I belief between many "disorders" there is a spectrum. I just moved away from one in the direction to another. Maybe I'm totally wrong with that, but that's how it feels like to me. Especially when I consider the fact that there are some gentic connections. But possible that by a closer look you'll still find differences in my childhood to "normal ASD children" and that I was even at that time more "schizotype".
I also don't think I'm schizoid, eventhough schizotypal and schizoid are overlapping. Schizoids are more withdrawn. I've still my social sides and at least some friends and social interrests. So I don't think at all it applies. I might be that some experts explain SPD and StPD like this, but so far I know many with StPD want contact to other people, but are afraid of social contact, but SPD on the other hand don't want. But maybe this argumentation doesn't make a lot of sence either, because SPD propably gets removed in the next DSM-5.

Anomiel wrote:
Anomiel wrote:
You're so right in that the potential for misdiagnosis is high if they do not count in all variables. Sorry that happened to you, but glad that you understood that as not everyone that is in that situation are capable of doing that legwork themselves and it's just unfair all around, for both the psychiatrist and the patient.


Raziel wrote:
I saw my old psychiatrist today in the train who missdx me. She said "hello" and smiled. I was totally surprised, I couldn't say a word, then I went back to my seat and to get remined on that time so that I got even tears in my eyes. :cry:
:(


Oh. Wow :( That's got to have been hard. Maybe she doesn't understand she f**** up?


Well, I think somehow.
At this time I needed an expert opinion, because I'm transgender and wanted my name change. So I went to a professor who is specialized in it. She knew all about it and everthing seemed fine. Then the appointment right befor she told me I wouldn't come along with anybody and crap like this, just because between us it didn't worked out so well. So I went to the professor and he said I'm a clear cut case. I talked to him for two hours and he gave me his "okay". Then when I had the expert report I gave it to the secretary of my psychiatrist, so that my psychiatrist could read it until next time I see her. Then in the next appointment she told me, she'll never belief that and why I would have done this to her? And kicked me out. 8O
Well, there also happend other stuff, but this would go too far.
And now I see her and she seems to be all nice, I just don't get it. :?
Well, but luckily everthing turned out fine in the end and I found a new psychiatrist right away, this one I'm now and he is really nice. I'm there since half a year.

Anomiel wrote:
But I do think you could find out many things for sure when you do choose to talk about this to a psychiatrist (I think it's a great idea that you're planning that) - they can tell you what they think, and if they also agree that you're a mix (as many people are) or whatever then that is what you "are". There are very few "pure" individuals. I mean you mentioned yourself it's not as easy as taking a bloodsample and at some point it becomes semantics. And then focusing on what area/s you need help in.


The last time I talked with my psychiatrist about it, he told me that at the moment I've too many stressors to be 100% sure and I know at the moment I've a bipolar II suspicion from him, but as a official diagnosis still "recurrent depression", because it's not 100% clear at the moment. So I talked to him about that, but not that much, but I didn't talked to him about StPD and what he thinks about it. But I've safed my answers of the SPQ so I can bring them to him. When I get nervous I never know what to say, so I like to have something to give and so I've something to talk about.


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