Gender differences in acceptability of eccentric behavior

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Tyri0n
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23 Mar 2013, 5:03 pm

What do you guys think? Do you think that males can get away with more eccentric behavior than females, especially in the work place, or is it the opposite?

There is a socially inept but probably NT girl on my Law Review who gets very lousy treatment while I think most people are pretty nice to me, even though we demonstrate nearly the same behavior. Which led me to wonder if maybe I should quit worrying so much and realize that I can actually get away with showing a lot of quirks just because I'm a guy and that a lot of those who struggle in the work place for social reasons are actually aspie females because women tend to be more cruel and conformist than men. Men seem to be more relaxed about conformity and pretty nice to other guys as long as someone isn't skinny or ugly. Is this correct?



paris75007
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23 Mar 2013, 5:58 pm

I think you hit on something with the difference between the way males and females react to those they perceive as different. I think males in general may be more forgiving of eccentricity across the board. I think females may be judged more harshly in the workplace for social shortcomings as those are seen as things women are "supposed" to be good at. I think people may be more harsh on females at work, but it seems like Aspie girls have it easier on the dating front, because men are more willing to overlook if you are a bit odd as long as you have other traits they like. I've never had trouble finding a partner, but finding jobs (the interview always trips me up) and keeping them has been a challenge. The place I work now seems pretty accepting so far, but a few years ago, I had a female boss who sensed I was different (I didn't have a dx yet)and did everything she could to run me off, even though I was good at my job.



Tyri0n
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23 Mar 2013, 6:49 pm

paris75007 wrote:
I think you hit on something with the difference between the way males and females react to those they perceive as different. I think males in general may be more forgiving of eccentricity across the board. I think females may be judged more harshly in the workplace for social shortcomings as those are seen as things women are "supposed" to be good at. I think people may be more harsh on females at work, but it seems like Aspie girls have it easier on the dating front, because men are more willing to overlook if you are a bit odd as long as you have other traits they like. I've never had trouble finding a partner, but finding jobs (the interview always trips me up) and keeping them has been a challenge. The place I work now seems pretty accepting so far, but a few years ago, I had a female boss who sensed I was different (I didn't have a dx yet)and did everything she could to run me off, even though I was good at my job.


You've had no problem finding a partner, or no problem getting dates? I think there's a difference. Don't all aspies have equal problems connecting with people?



paris75007
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23 Mar 2013, 7:13 pm

Both. I have no trouble getting dates and no trouble getting into relationships (I have been married twice and with someone for at least a year two other times). Maintaining the relationships in difficult after I get in them, but as long as the other person is understanding and gives me space when I need it, it works.



Tyri0n
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23 Mar 2013, 7:40 pm

paris75007 wrote:
Both. I have no trouble getting dates and no trouble getting into relationships (I have been married twice and with someone for at least a year two other times). Maintaining the relationships in difficult after I get in them, but as long as the other person is understanding and gives me space when I need it, it works.


See, that's because in our culture, the man has to do all the work (well, maybe that's not fair; it's hard to describe what I mean, so don't take it the wrong way). Women tend to use language like "makes me happy..." or "impresses me" or "takes care of me" or when talking about a first date "surprise me" (this is well-illustrated by Penny's statements in Season 6, Episode 5 of the Big Bang Theory). I'm sure women are expected to do a lot of things, too, but I just don't know exactly. I think our culture puts too much pressure on men, so after dating someone for a short time, I change my mind and decide I don't want to be in a relationship at all -- usually because I'm just exhausted. I'd honestly rather play the girl/passive role in some respects, but I can't because our culture is too prejudiced. So I think I'm pretty much content now with not being in a relationship. One could say that the dating world is "female dominated" in that women are the primary gatekeepers who seem to set most of the rules.

In the work place, however, men dominate and set most of the rules.

Thus, maybe it makes perfect sense that aspie women would struggle the most in the male-dominated workplace where lots of pressure is put on women to conform to a traditional female role while aspie men would struggle the most in the female-dominated dating world where women tend to make the rules and set the expectations.

It's counterintuitive, I think. If women's bad treatment in the work place comes mostly from women, how can you attribute it to male dominance? I actually think it's true. The male bosses set the tone of narrow gender expectations for women, and women tend to enforce them on each other. Perhaps a similar thing happens in the dating world. Unsure.

I would love a world where there were equal numbers of male and female bosses in the workplace and where there was no difference in gender expectations when it comes to dating.



paris75007
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23 Mar 2013, 9:52 pm

You are absolutely correct in your analysis...and you gave a very good explanation for why dating is easier for AS women and working may be easier for AS men...except I wouldn't say it's "the male bosses" causing women to enforce gender roles on each other, but that people are conditioned from birth to enforce gender roles on each other. They would do it, even if there is no male above them, based on societal dictates. I think it may just be that they are enforced more by people of the same sex. I'm sure men who don't conform to male gender roles take more flack from guys than they do women. I will say that I think the ascribed female gender roles are far more complex than male roles and easier to affront somehow, without even knowing what you did. There is always a line that women have to walk between various dichotomies: ie, sexy but not slu*ty, attentive but not clingy, smart but not too smart. It is assumed that women are always supposed to be "polite", and if not, that makes you a b***h. Whereas, if you are a man, they are going to notice first whether you are good at your job, and consider everything else within that frame. The flip side of that, and this sucks just as bad, is that men's identities are built around professional success, instead of other more important things like kindness or whether they are happy.



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24 Mar 2013, 12:20 am

paris75007 wrote:
You are absolutely correct in your analysis...and you gave a very good explanation for why dating is easier for AS women and working may be easier for AS men...except I wouldn't say it's "the male bosses" causing women to enforce gender roles on each other, but that people are conditioned from birth to enforce gender roles on each other. They would do it, even if there is no male above them, based on societal dictates. I think it may just be that they are enforced more by people of the same sex. I'm sure men who don't conform to male gender roles take more flack from guys than they do women. I will say that I think the ascribed female gender roles are far more complex than male roles and easier to affront somehow, without even knowing what you did. There is always a line that women have to walk between various dichotomies: ie, sexy but not slu*ty, attentive but not clingy, smart but not too smart. It is assumed that women are always supposed to be "polite", and if not, that makes you a b***h. Whereas, if you are a man, they are going to notice first whether you are good at your job, and consider everything else within that frame. The flip side of that, and this sucks just as bad, is that men's identities are built around professional success, instead of other more important things like kindness or whether they are happy.


Hmmm...well, I have a hard time admitting that I might have a disadvantage in something. That makes me feel like I'm weak. There have been tons of threads claiming that aspie women have it easier when it comes to dating, and I've always vehemently denied it. I guess I really don't know. Do I have it harder, or not? I can't connect with people, but I would think this would affect women equally. I am not going to express anymore opinions on this matter.



mercifullyfree
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24 Mar 2013, 9:38 am

I feel more pressure to be socially attuned, but most of this pressure comes from other (NT) women. Can't say for sure that it's easier to get dates, but must stress that being able to get someone's attention for a short time and getting dumped a lot isn't exactly a great advantage. I think getting involved then dumped hurts more than being told No from the start.



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24 Mar 2013, 12:34 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
I feel more pressure to be socially attuned, but most of this pressure comes from other (NT) women. Can't say for sure that it's easier to get dates, but must stress that being able to get someone's attention for a short time and getting dumped a lot isn't exactly a great advantage. I think getting involved then dumped hurts more than being told No from the start.


Yeah, you're right. I was just wondering about it because I recently met an aspie girl who seems quite eccentric who just got out of a relationship that lasted 3 years. I'm not half as weird, and I could never imagine anything lasting that long with me, especially 3 years ago.

But your experience sounds like mine. The work place point I made still seems to ring pretty true, though. The argument about dating is far more iffy.



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24 Mar 2013, 6:36 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
I feel more pressure to be socially attuned, but most of this pressure comes from other (NT) women. Can't say for sure that it's easier to get dates, but must stress that being able to get someone's attention for a short time and getting dumped a lot isn't exactly a great advantage. I think getting involved then dumped hurts more than being told No from the start.


I think my strongest critics have all been women. They sneer at the clothes, the looks, the awkward movements. Guys find it odd i guess. But other women have always made my life hard.



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24 Mar 2013, 8:49 pm

As for dating and what a womans role is: our role is generally to pace and maintain a relationship once it has started. This can be one of the most problematic parts for aspie women since we don't have that intricate knowledge of how it's supposed to work - which often leads to a lot of dates that go nowhere or going on a few and then being dropped by said guy. Maintaining a relationship is damn hard work when you don't know how the hell to do that - especially if the other person expects you to maintain it and doesn't do anything to help (and many men don't from the other aspie women I have talked to - they don't know how either and they consider it the womans job).

As for work... guys and girls can get away with different quirks depending on the core gender group and their expectations - different quirks are more or less accepted depending on set gender expectations and how in line they are. A lot of men will be more accepting of a girls quirks, even in the workplace. A lot of women wont be accepting of another woman's quirks in the workplace. I've found other guys tend to judge other men's quirks more harshly in workplace scenarios than other women do.

I freely admit that at most places I have worked - it's always been other women who have made my work life difficult or impossible, even when I was quite good at my jobs. No matter how good you are at work, if you don't confirm, you are more than likely to be judged as an outcast and generally they will attempt to push you out. Certain work environments - artists, philosophers, or maybe if you work at google :lol: etc - will be more used to quirks or eccentricity and therefore you can probably get away with more in such environments.


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24 Mar 2013, 9:24 pm

Yeah I agree. Its not nessarily "male" bosses that give women trouble. In fact older females have given me more trouble then anything. They find me disrespectful, aloof and rude many times. Not following the manners of the female social code. Its very subtle though because Im very quiet most of the time so its not like Im yelling out disrespectful things or starting verbal fights. Male bosses have less problems with me normally because I get done the work and thats that. Men are less likely to have issues with a lack of socialbility from me.

There is this a fine line that women have to walk especially with your sexy but not slu*ty metaphor. I didnt understand that for the longest time because theres so much variation especially in clothes and makeup. One dress might look completely different on women. You have to figure that out which is a very NT thing to imagine. Many aspies dont care that much fashion nor do we really understand the subtle impression clothes can project.

I think women find dating easier because as long as were decent looking men dont care as much. Yeah I've ran into my fair share of stuck up men that thought it was messed up that I didnt conform to the feminine social code but theres a lot of other guys that dont care as much. If you have enough similar interests and play a somewhat passive role, guys are cool. However the whole relationship thing can be confusing



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25 Mar 2013, 1:42 am

Kjas wrote:
As for work... guys and girls can get away with different quirks depending on the core gender group and their expectations - different quirks are more or less accepted depending on set gender expectations and how in line they are. A lot of men will be more accepting of a girls quirks, even in the workplace. A lot of women wont be accepting of another woman's quirks in the workplace. I've found other guys tend to judge other men's quirks more harshly in workplace scenarios than other women do.


I think this is likely true. In my case, at least. There've definitely been some exceptions but, on the whole, women tend to be more accepting of my unusual behavior than men. And from what I've seen (though I'm hardly an expert), women seem to judge other women more harshly for not fitting in than men do.



Tyri0n
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25 Mar 2013, 6:22 am

mds_02 wrote:
Kjas wrote:
As for work... guys and girls can get away with different quirks depending on the core gender group and their expectations - different quirks are more or less accepted depending on set gender expectations and how in line they are. A lot of men will be more accepting of a girls quirks, even in the workplace. A lot of women wont be accepting of another woman's quirks in the workplace. I've found other guys tend to judge other men's quirks more harshly in workplace scenarios than other women do.


I think this is likely true. In my case, at least. There've definitely been some exceptions but, on the whole, women tend to be more accepting of my unusual behavior than men. And from what I've seen (though I'm hardly an expert), women seem to judge other women more harshly for not fitting in than men do.


First, I think even men are more tolerant of most quirks in other men. But the one key exception is nonconformity with gender norms. Here, I think the deck is definitely stacked against men, just about everywhere.

In the dating world, men (and society generally) are far more tolerant of gender nonconformity in women than women (or society) are with respect to men.

Everyone seems to admire tough girls who wear jeans and can shoot an AK-47. But few people seem to admire whiny, needy, emotional guys who love shopping (ok, extreme example...). The song "I kissed a girl" by Katy Perry became a popular hit, but I highly doubt if Eminem recorded a song called "I kissed a boy," it would have quite the same level of popularity. Movies and popular culture--as well as entire political movements--praise & support women who defy gender norms, but there does not exist the equivalent support for men who defy gender norms.

There is definitely lots of social prejudice against women who defy gender norms. But, in some ways, the stigma against men who do so is much greater (though the fact that women are more often judged on clothing and appearance can work the other way too).

One could argue that the whole "sexy but not slu*ty" thing is actually sexism caused by the patriarchy in the U.S. In Europe, as well as South Korea, it seems women dress more like what would be considered "slu*ty" in the U.S., but particularly in South Korea, men do not regard them as such, and they do not behave as such. There isn't the same connection in more progressive countries between dress and perceived behavior in women.

In addition, in both parts of Europe and South Korea, effeminate behavior in men is more socially acceptable (though in the case of South Korea, gender nonconformity is definitely not tolerated among women, so it's basically the opposite of the U.S in that gender nonconformity is tolerated among men but not among women). It could just be that years of under education in the U.S. have taken their toll and made this a stupid prejudiced country.

Disclosure: I've lived in South Korea but not in Europe.



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25 Mar 2013, 9:00 am

Tyri0n wrote:
I highly doubt if Eminem recorded a song called "I kissed a boy," it would have quite the same level of popularity.


It might not, but it would be awesome if he did this....

The lopsided gender role acceptance probably ties in to female homosexuality being considered more acceptable than male homosexuality. One tantalizes many men, the other makes many men feel threatened.