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ruveyn
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25 Mar 2013, 4:03 pm

mercifullyfree wrote:
Abrahamic religion. All of them are only tolerable to the extent that they've been tamed by secular liberal ideas.


Correct. Back in biblical times the religion of the Israelites was just as bad a** as the religion of the Jihadis. But three thousand years of being kicked around has rendered the current form of Judaism fit for civilized company. Christianity has been gentled somewhat by the enlightenment and scientific based secularism. Islam is as wild and wooly as it ever was.

ruveyn



mercifullyfree
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25 Mar 2013, 4:12 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Correct. Back in biblical times the religion of the Israelites was just as bad a** as the religion of the Jihadis. But three thousand years of being kicked around has rendered the current form of Judaism fit for civilized company. Christianity has been gentled somewhat by the enlightenment and scientific based secularism. Islam is as wild and wooly as it ever was.

ruveyn


Indeed, but I think it can be tamed as well. Where I am, we have a Muslim mayor. He is nice and seems to be much more liberal than a lot of the Christians south of the border from here.



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25 Mar 2013, 4:31 pm

ruveyn wrote:
mercifullyfree wrote:
Abrahamic religion. All of them are only tolerable to the extent that they've been tamed by secular liberal ideas.


Correct. Back in biblical times the religion of the Israelites was just as bad a** as the religion of the Jihadis. But three thousand years of being kicked around has rendered the current form of Judaism fit for civilized company. Christianity has been gentled somewhat by the enlightenment and scientific based secularism. Islam is as wild and wooly as it ever was.

ruveyn


That is because islam has re-fundamentalised in the last part of the 20th century. One step forward, two steps back.



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25 Mar 2013, 4:53 pm

Has anyone even bothered to punish the girl's stepfather who had raped her for years?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



thomas81
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25 Mar 2013, 4:57 pm

Plenty of Secular and 'Christian' countries apply punishments of questionable morality.

Just because the United States arbitrarily beats, imposes racist double standards, gases, injects and electrocutes its inmates (sometimes wrongly) does not mean I hold other predominantly Christian and secular countries to the same standard. This is opportunist point scoring of the worst sort.

The irony is, people are fast to criticise my anti-Israel threads but on this the usual suspects are fast to chime in with their 'hear hears'.


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ModusPonens
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25 Mar 2013, 5:19 pm

uwmonkdm wrote:
It's hilarious to me that people go insane over some drunk teenager getting f**** when she passed out, when sh** like this is happening...
Welcome to 2013


Two questions:

1- Have you signed the petition?

2- Can you try to fool us hard enough so that we believe that this sentence wasn't meant to say that the suffering of the american girl (which I didn't even know about!) was nothing compared to the one in the Maldives?



ruveyn
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25 Mar 2013, 5:22 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Plenty of Secular and 'Christian' countries apply punishments of questionable morality.

'.


any as severe as lashes and stoning?

I am talking about now, not back in the 16 th century or before.

ruveyn



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25 Mar 2013, 5:30 pm

Yes, you will find that there are some Christian countries that are still extremely backward on some matters, especially to do with sexuality - but you'll find no argument from me, and I speak out against them where I see them. (I'm thinking of the relentless gay-bashing in the Caribbean and the appalling treatment meted out towards gays in Africa.)

I think, thomas81, that you are deliberately misinterpreting the point. As usual. You see, many Western countries have their failings (and my God, they do). Difference is, that we can change them over time as we change our attitudes. Many of the countries that belong to the Organisation of Islamic Crooks cannot do that, because they are beholden to primitive, barbaric religious teachings.



thomas81
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25 Mar 2013, 5:49 pm

Tequila wrote:
Yes, you will find that there are some Christian countries that are still extremely backward on some matters, especially to do with sexuality - but you'll find no argument from me, and I speak out against them where I see them. (I'm thinking of the relentless gay-bashing in the Caribbean and the appalling treatment meted out towards gays in Africa.)

I think, thomas81, that you are deliberately misinterpreting the point. As usual. You see, many Western countries have their failings (and my God, they do). Difference is, that we can change them over time as we change our attitudes. Many of the countries that belong to the Organisation of Islamic Crooks cannot do that, because they are beholden to primitive, barbaric religious teachings.


Christianity has a 600 year head start. Islam is currently at the same stage that Christianity was when it was burning 'witches', stretching people on racks and massacring 'heathens'.


I'm not apologising for Islam by any stretch. I am simply saying it is the inevitability of organised religion of this kind and magnitude. I have a great issue when it comes to prevailing discriminatory attitudes. In the words of Optimus Prime ''Were we really so different?''

If you are going to criticise, attack the concept of organised religion, not specific religions. It will make you look like less of a prejudiced jackass.


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ModusPonens
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25 Mar 2013, 5:55 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Yes, you will find that there are some Christian countries that are still extremely backward on some matters, especially to do with sexuality - but you'll find no argument from me, and I speak out against them where I see them. (I'm thinking of the relentless gay-bashing in the Caribbean and the appalling treatment meted out towards gays in Africa.)

I think, thomas81, that you are deliberately misinterpreting the point. As usual. You see, many Western countries have their failings (and my God, they do). Difference is, that we can change them over time as we change our attitudes. Many of the countries that belong to the Organisation of Islamic Crooks cannot do that, because they are beholden to primitive, barbaric religious teachings.


Christianity has a 600 year head start. Islam is currently at the same stage that Christianity was when it was burning 'witches', stretching people on racks and massacring 'heathens'.


That is a very, very, very, very poor argument. In the 1400s there were no newspapers, no radio, no television, no internet. Muslims have a lot more oportunities to gather information and that doesn't affect the excesses of muslim countries.



thomas81
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25 Mar 2013, 6:02 pm

Unfortunately in some countries its down to willful ignorance on the part of their politicians and theological leaders. Yes, muslims do have access to the internet and other media however opportunities to learn English being few and far between coupled with laws prohibiting 'haram' culture retards the pace of change in muslim countries. If you have religious scripture which specifically prohibits or discourages foreign cultures then of course it will be difficult to cultivate change.

That doesn't change the fact that plenty of muslims including muslim theologians are hardworking, respectable and moral people that really aren't that different to the rest of the world. Some muslim countries on the other hand have in many ways, embraced western institutions. Case in point being Turkey, and to a lesser extent Gadaffi's Libya where women enjoyed rights on a par with any liberal western country.

Ironically, I think with the power changes created by western interference Sharia Islam will continue to gain influence as Al Quaeda consolidates their stranglehold over countries once governed by Ba'ath and 'Green' socialism.


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ModusPonens
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25 Mar 2013, 6:14 pm

You equated islam to 15th century christianity. Why don't the muslims look at Turkey? Is it forbiden too?



Tequila
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25 Mar 2013, 6:29 pm

ModusPonens wrote:
You equated islam to 15th century christianity. Why don't the muslims look at Turkey?


That's the Turkey that's increasingly going backwards because of an Islamist government?

In general, for me, the most successful Muslim countries are those that have rejected Islam as much as they can. For all his faults, Atatürk is a hero of mine.



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25 Mar 2013, 6:38 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Islam is currently at the same stage that Christianity was when it was burning 'witches', stretching people on racks and massacring 'heathens'.


Islam has the inbuilt handicap of the death penalty to anyone that leaves their religion or who criticises it. (See Sharia).

I have listened to discussions with many ex-Muslims and some of the more liberal Muslims, and they cannot seriously see a way that Islam can be reformed whilst leaving the central theology of the thing intact.


I'm not apologising for Islam by any stretch. I am simply saying it is the inevitability of organised religion of this kind and magnitude. I have a great issue when it comes to prevailing discriminatory attitudes. In the words of Optimus Prime ''Were we really so different?''

thomas81 wrote:
If you are going to criticise, attack the concept of organised religion, not specific religions. It will make you look like less of a prejudiced jackass.


I attack both. I don't like any reliigion. All organised religion to me is a stain on humanity, and all of them have ridiculous (to me) beliefs. The idea of a totalitarian, all-seeing God is so ludicrous to be that it's almost beyond description. I don't care what kind of God it is - it's even more ludicrous than believing in Santa Claus, and that is a particularly egregious belief to start with.

None of these Gods mean anything to me. I only fear the violence of the religious mob, because of what they can do to me. The 'gods' of this world have no effect on me.

Christianity is a ludicrous concept - and it is still a colonialist ideology, to this present today. I am not proud of this. I can mention other religions at this point, but this is whataboutery. The Reformation and the Enlightenment brought many good things to us as a suitably enlightened species, and as a people: it taught us, eventually and at long last, to treat religion - the Christian religion in our case - with the contempt it deserves.

I hope, I dearly hope, that I can see the same gift that we were given to us Christians as to happen in Muslim countries. And I'm sure it will happen (probably it will start in the West, whenever we get around to stopping mass immigration from Pakistan). Countries like Iran and Egypt, and many of the Arab countries seem like amazing places to visit. I want to see and experience the culture, the food and the music of all these places, without the influence of religion.

I don't like Christianity. I don't like Islam. I don't like any religion that impedes upon the liberty of free people.



ruveyn
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26 Mar 2013, 6:15 am

Tequila wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Islam is currently at the same stage that Christianity was when it was burning 'witches', stretching people on racks and massacring 'heathens'.


Islam has the inbuilt handicap of the death penalty to anyone that leaves their religion or who criticises it. (See Sharia).

I have listened to discussions with many ex-Muslims and some of the more liberal Muslims, and they cannot seriously see a way that Islam can be reformed whilst leaving the central theology of the thing intact.


.


The central doctrine of Islam is precisely the problem. It rest on the literal truth of the Q'ran and the inerrancy of the Prophet (pus and blisters upon him). As long as the ravings of a child molester and lunatic are taken as "gospel" there is no cure in sight.

ruveyn



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30 Mar 2013, 5:18 pm

While discussing the treatment ofArabic Muslim women found guilty of adultery, specifically, some well-publicized deaths by stoning, a neighbor ( from Jordan, and a Muslim) told me that the Q'uran does not demand death as punishment, but rather a caning or whipping.

In our view, still extreme, but the point is that the 'literalists' are NOT following the letter of their own law.

Sylkat