Eagle Scout denied graduation for gun left in car

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trollcatman
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08 May 2013, 6:34 pm

Fnord wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
Breaking the law doesn't mean he has done something bad...

Does your homeworld have oxygen in its atmosphere? I think you may need to go outside and breathe some of it.

:roll:


So on your homeworld there are no bad laws?

I believe in freedom of speech. I will not help enforce anti-blasphemy laws. Insulting god(s) is a victimless crime. That silly anti-blasphemy law will probably get scrapped soon anyway. It hasn't been enforced for decades.
The law is a work in progress anyway, not set in stone. Slavery was legal in many places in the past, but that does not mean it is ethical.
In Germany there is a Tanzverbot (dancing ban) for religious holidays such as Good Friday. Even for people who do not follow the teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth.
A bunch of Dutch politicians thought it would be a good idea to make helping illegal immigrants against the law (didn't happen). Then people giving food to illegal immigrants (who have no legal way of having any form of income) would be against the law. Is it ethical to follow such a law?
I do believe most laws in my country are good, and I try to follow them. But we should be critical of the bad ones and support reform to make it better.



Misslizard
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08 May 2013, 7:35 pm

I break the every time I go to town,I love to do rolling stops aka "California stops",if I can see there is no car coming(and no cop :lol:)well,why bother wearing my break shoes out.
But if I got stopped,I'd admit to it,I did it,oh well.Stupid law,still would be charged.


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Sweetleaf
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08 May 2013, 9:15 pm

trollcatman wrote:
Fnord wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
Breaking the law doesn't mean he has done something bad...

Does your homeworld have oxygen in its atmosphere? I think you may need to go outside and breathe some of it.

:roll:


So on your homeworld there are no bad laws?

I believe in freedom of speech. I will not help enforce anti-blasphemy laws. Insulting god(s) is a victimless crime. That silly anti-blasphemy law will probably get scrapped soon anyway. It hasn't been enforced for decades.
The law is a work in progress anyway, not set in stone. Slavery was legal in many places in the past, but that does not mean it is ethical.
In Germany there is a Tanzverbot (dancing ban) for religious holidays such as Good Friday. Even for people who do not follow the teachings of Yeshua of Nazareth.
A bunch of Dutch politicians thought it would be a good idea to make helping illegal immigrants against the law (didn't happen). Then people giving food to illegal immigrants (who have no legal way of having any form of income) would be against the law. Is it ethical to follow such a law?
I do believe most laws in my country are good, and I try to follow them. But we should be critical of the bad ones and support reform to make it better.


Yes maybe in an ideal world breaking the law is equivalent to doing something wrong, but when you have so many ridiculous laws...it just doesn't turn out that way. Besides when a law isn't serving the people too well it should be changed like what is happening with marijuana laws in my state.......prohibition wasn't working so its been legalized and now they are working on figuring out how to tax it and allow for it to be sold. But if it wasn't for all the people breaking the law to smoke marijuana not so sure action would have been taken to legalize it.


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Raptor
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08 May 2013, 9:45 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Simply leaving a gun in a vehicle is not irresponsible or illegal in the free world, especially if the vehicles is locked.


Surely the question of whether or not it is illegal is a question within the jurisdiction of the legislature and the courts of the jurisdiction concerned. If the young man was arrested, it strikes me that there must be a prima facie case for him to answer.

It was in a "gun free" zone is what's driving this. You know, the same kind of gun free zone that Adam Lanza and Seung-Hui Cho found to be easy human shooting galleries.
Aside from that I found nothing in the North Carolina statues that directly prohibits or even directly addresses transport of long guns.

Quote:
Personally, I don't believe that a vehicle provides adequate security, unless the weapon is locked in a gun case. But that's a matter of personal opinion, not law.

It's a firearm, not something that emits gamma rays or could leak deadly toxin's into the atmosphere.

visagrunt wrote:
Raptor wrote:
A burglar would have to commit one crime (B&E) to gain access, a second crime in stealing the gun, and a third crime if he used the gun in the commission of another crime. Add to that if he was legally barred from possession of firearms from prior convictions or whatever.


I don't think that the fact that a person intent on taking possession of the weapon would have to commit other crimes contributes to its security. If a person is going to make a smash and grab, the additional offenses don't serve to protect the firearm from being stolen.

The point is that theft is theft and if the vehicle and gun owner in question locked the vehicle he has taken positive steps to safeguard both.
The vehicle and weapon are inaccessible without another party breaking the law to access them.

Fnord wrote:
He brought a firearm onto school property. Knowingly or not, responsible or not, he broke the law.
Being an Eagle Scout is irrelevant - He broke the law.
Being a Christian is irrelevant - He broke the law.
Being an Honor Student is irrelevant - He broke the law.
Being black, white, Asian, or whatever is irrelevant - He broke the law.
"Everybody does it" is irrelevant - He broke the law.
The school district is well within reason for the actions it took, because HE BROKE THE LAW!
He deserves to have his say in criminal court.

Needless to say, I did not sign the petition.


Yeah, remember if some cop pulls you over for going 72 in a 70 zone and writes out a ticked, points included, that YOU broke THE LAW. :shameonyou:


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Last edited by Raptor on 09 May 2013, 2:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

CSBurks
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08 May 2013, 10:01 pm

Laws are not always just or morally right.

Morality and ethics exist outside of the law. There is no moral obligation to follow the law.



marshall
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08 May 2013, 10:02 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I break the every time I go to town,I love to do rolling stops aka "California stops",if I can see there is no car coming(and no cop :lol:)well,why bother wearing my break shoes out.
But if I got stopped,I'd admit to it,I did it,oh well.Stupid law,still would be charged.

I didn't think anyone ever did complete stops after they passed drivers ed school. Just like nobody drives at or below the speed limit on the freeway unless they're forced to by traffic congestion or the presence of cops. :lol: Of course there are some people who don't even slow down as if they were going to stop before turning. That IS pretty insane in most cases. Unless you're really out in the middle of nowhere and there are no trees or obstructions blocking your view of the cross traffic even a hundred yards before entering the intersection.

Oh, and with cops I notice a funny thing. When cars notice a cop has pulled someone over on the side of the road, they all slam on the brakes to the point where they're going like 5mph under the speed limit. Why bother slowing down? Why not just speed up since you know they already picked off their sucker and can't pull over two cars at the same time? Maybe this isn't such a good idea if they're working in pairs, but usually if they're doing that they are patrolling opposite directions. Hmmm.



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08 May 2013, 10:53 pm

I didn't look this up,but there's a quote by Hunter S. Thompson about not slowing down because the cop will see you as a coward.I'm not sure of the exact quote,but I drive over the speed limit,well,ALL the time,drive it like you stole it,ha ha.
But I won't speed for awhile,it's tourist season,they drive slow.You can't pass them. :evil:


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08 May 2013, 10:59 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I didn't look this up,but there's a quote by Hunter S. Thompson about not slowing down because the cop will see you as a coward.I'm not sure of the exact quote,but I drive over the speed limit,well,ALL the time,drive it like you stole it,ha ha.
But I won't speed for awhile,it's tourist season,they drive slow.You can't pass them. :evil:


Well the times I didn't slow down my ass got pulled over.


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Misslizard
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08 May 2013, 11:13 pm

^^^^You are not as cute as me,plus,what were you driving?It makes a difference,I look like an off work librarian.Read Arrest Proof Yourself,sorry can't remember the author.


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08 May 2013, 11:31 pm

/\ /\ /\
If you're going considerably over the speed limit and don't bring it down a notch when you see a cop, assuming he's watching, it's gonna boil down to at least getting pulled over.


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Misslizard
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08 May 2013, 11:40 pm

Of course,but there are only around 7,000 people in this county.Law enforcement is scarce,and we don't even have a jail,no joke.It was ruled inhumane,or something like that.


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Raptor
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08 May 2013, 11:46 pm

Don't pass a state trooper. :shameonyou:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoGkcvyCxnU[/youtube]


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Misslizard
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08 May 2013, 11:59 pm

I'm not brain dead :lol: All two lane here,and the local Trooper's name is &@&@$ :lol:


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09 May 2013, 12:44 am

All the times I've been pulled over I didn't know there was a cop till I saw flashing blue lights in my rear view. It was always one of those with interior mounted flashers and covert markings. One time I was cruising along in the left lane, going somewhere between 5 and 10 over to get passed a semi. So I've finally cleared it, put my right signal on, and suddenly out of nowhere there's a car to my right. I speed up, it speeds up, blocking me from getting out of the left lane. I get pissed thinking "what the hell is this guy doing" and speed up some more to the point where I'm 20 over. Then I see the trooper label. He slows down, I move over, and the flashers go on. He only ticketed me for 10 over but made sure to let it be known that he was "letting me off easy". Cops can be trolls.



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09 May 2013, 9:55 am

So we expect officials to take it upon themselves not to enforce "stupid" or "trival" laws?

For people who stand up so firmly for the constitution, that is a wantonly stupid idea. Officials don't get to stand in the shoes of the court. Period.

A court can declare a law to be unconstitutional. An official cannot. A court can determine that a law is penalizing a trivial breach, and set an appropriately lenient sentence, or even use alternative resolutions like diversion or discharge. An official cannot.

It is misguided in the extreme to expect police officers and other members of the executive branch of government (which includes people who administer public schools) to cross over the line into the realm of the judicial branch.

Courts exist to sort out precisely this kind of case. If the impact is excessive, the court can mitigate it. If the offence is trivial, the court has the jurisdiction to ignore it. So let the courts do their work.


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