Good social skills are about being a good liar/pretender

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chlov
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20 May 2013, 3:43 pm

qawer wrote:
Studying how those with good social skills go about it, I see they are basically being good a putting on a facade. Being good liars/pretenders. Constantly convincing other people they are in it for their best interest, when in fact they are only in it for their own best interest, not really caring that much about others. Asperger people prefer the truth and are in general bad liars. That results in social skill deficits.



How much truth do you find there is to this observation?

Social deficit is not necessarily caused by being blunt.

I know a lot of people who are blunt but don't have social skills deficts.
Like my friend's older sister.
She is very blunt when talking to others, but doesn't have Asperger's or social skills deficits, and has many friends.
Her sister, who is my friend, is not blunt (this doesn't mean she doesn't tell the truth; she tells the truth and can't lie, but tries to tell it in a "kind" way), has social skills deficits (but not the others important AS-like traits), is very shy and has very few friends.



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20 May 2013, 4:15 pm

qawer wrote:
Studying how those with good social skills go about it, I see they are basically being good a putting on a facade. Being good liars/pretenders. Constantly convincing other people they are in it for their best interest, when in fact they are only in it for their own best interest, not really caring that much about others. Asperger people prefer the truth and are in general bad liars. That results in social skill deficits.



How much truth do you find there is to this observation?

Not much truth --rather lots of fallacious thinking. A kind or cruel and/or not trustworthy person could be anyone, aspie or so called nt....and most people lie not just to others but also to themselves,and some are users and do have these ulterior motives, both unconscious and sometimes conscious, plus these "nt" people may be getting something out of their interactions that you may be naively unaware of due to your own limited theory of mind (which is not really able to include most other people) plus constantly comparing yourself to others which is a form of thinking about yourself and kind of self-centered. These "nt's" may not be doing that so much, but experiencing certain qualities of bonding around friendship, for example the release of the hormone oxytocin, that are very satisfying, but certain aspie types because of self-preoccupation and other things--fear and their own not-in synch story-- cut themselves off and so experience a kind of cold isolated state that they project onto others which is even a form of paranoia. Not a very fun or happy experience, and yeah, many aspies I have seen on here, but not all,,project this paranoia outward and blame it on someone else:-)

Quote:
the reason why people need to read body language and all the other stuff is because they cannot trust each other. They cannot trust each other because everyone is in it for their own best, not the others best. That's what "reading the social environment" is about: through body language, actions etc. trying to figure out what other people are really up to, because they cannot put that much trust in the words other people tell them, if any.


No, fallacious. It is a sensory way of understanding people, getting to know them and how trust is gradually built up.People have these tools and of course use them, though maybe not you. Of course you cannot trust everyone. That is a naive form of idealism akin to magical thinking. I am not saying this is you, but according to object relations theory I have been reading recently, a quite young child can split parts of himself and magically perceives himself as only good because he cannot integrate both bad and good aspects of himself and others, so he is not truly able to completely individuate and is stuck at a kind of childish state of (lack of) integration. (Put into my own words and maybe not expressed that well...).

Quote:
The difference is that that doesn't hurt anyone, but does the opposite. So that is a good thing. My problem is only when people hurt each other socially in sneaky ways.


I think that young people such as in their late teens and early twenties who are having this kind of problem should hang around different people....and also try to focus on themselves and their own development, such as feeling their own feelings instead of just thinking about them---then maybe someday these people will be in a much better position to actually help others.

Of course their is always inquiry...that is helpful.......



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20 May 2013, 10:17 pm

I like the living together without killing each other eggsplanation.


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qo0op
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21 May 2013, 11:03 am

There is definitely some truth in it. Recently I was thinking why do I prefer company of "wierd" people instead of the "normal' ones and came to conclusion that it`s like that because "wierd" ones are unable/don`t feel a need to pretend or mask their true nature/feelings to be accepted by others while "normal" ones are doing it naturally and that makes it for me harder to see what is actually their motivation and how do they really feel towards me and that confuses and makes me feel uneasy and a bit paranoid.



littlebee
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21 May 2013, 1:34 pm

qo0op wrote:
There is definitely some truth in it. Recently I was thinking why do I prefer company of "wierd" people instead of the "normal' ones and came to conclusion that it`s like that because "wierd" ones are unable/don`t feel a need to pretend or mask their true nature/feelings to be accepted by others while "normal" ones are doing it naturally and that makes it for me harder to see what is actually their motivation and how do they really feel towards me and that confuses and makes me feel uneasy and a bit paranoid.


Thanks for this message. You are right. There is some kind of truth in it....I was looking from a particular angle and will rethink what I wrote and make some clarifying comments later.



1000Knives
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21 May 2013, 1:53 pm

Adamantium wrote:
Not much.

Not because it's completely wrong, but because it misses the point.

The idea of being polte can be seen as ritualized lying, and being polite certainly does involve saying things that are not true. For example, polite speech requires that you ask for people's "pardon" when you may not give a damn what they think. You say "Excuse me" when you mean "get out of my way" or "STFU" --but these conventional utterances were arrived at over a long time to make it possible for people to live and work together without killing each other.

In the same way, all sorts of small talk exists to define and reinforce relationships. People are not lying, they are just focusing on something else, something that some of us don't perceive very well. Just because we are not sensitive to it, doesn't mean it isn't there. It seems unfair that we are shut out of it, but that's the way it is.

It's not lying, it's communicating indirectly.

Being good at putting on a facade is absolutely part of it.

It's what other kids are learning in the early grades and why the social communication deficits of Aspergers start to become evident for many in school interactions at that age.


See, most adults tell me I'm much more polite than most people my age. Being polite does not equal good social skills.

My problem is that I'm not a cool enough bro. Our modern society much favors a communication style like this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oXCm4N3J_M[/youtube]



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21 May 2013, 2:15 pm

qawer wrote:
Studying how those with good social skills go about it, I see they are basically being good a putting on a facade. Being good liars/pretenders. Constantly convincing other people they are in it for their best interest, when in fact they are only in it for their own best interest, not really caring that much about others. Asperger people prefer the truth and are in general bad liars. That results in social skill deficits. How much truth do you find there is to this observation?

Quite a lot, actually.

To be sociable is more about making other people feel good about themselves than about telling the truth.

If you spend 20 minutes telling a coworker that they have every right to feel the way that they do, that you understand completely why they feel that way, and that they can come to you any time to talk about their feelings, then that's expressing "good social skills", right?

But telling them instead that they wouldn't feel so bad if they would check the loo for a full roll before they sit down to do their business (a very practical solution indeed) is considered "blunt" and "insensitive".

:roll: Puh-leeze!



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21 May 2013, 2:49 pm

littlebee wrote:
qawer wrote:
Studying how those with good social skills go about it, I see they are basically being good a putting on a facade. Being good liars/pretenders. Constantly convincing other people they are in it for their best interest, when in fact they are only in it for their own best interest, not really caring that much about others. Asperger people prefer the truth and are in general bad liars. That results in social skill deficits.


How much truth do you find there is to this observation?

Not much truth --rather lots of fallacious thinking. A kind or cruel and/or not trustworthy person could be anyone, aspie or so called nt....and most people lie not just to others but also to themselves,and some are users and do have these ulterior motives, both unconscious and sometimes conscious, plus these "nt" people may be getting something out of their interactions that you may be naively unaware of due to your own limited theory of mind (which is not really able to include most other people) plus constantly comparing yourself to others which is a form of thinking about yourself and kind of self-centered. These "nt's" may not be doing that so much, but experiencing certain qualities of bonding around friendship, for example the release of the hormone oxytocin, that are very satisfying, but certain aspie types because of self-preoccupation and other things--fear and their own not-in synch story-- cut themselves off and so experience a kind of cold isolated state that they project onto others which is even a form of paranoia. Not a very fun or happy experience, and yeah, many aspies I have seen on here, but not all,,project this paranoia outward and blame it on someone else:-)

Quote:
the reason why people need to read body language and all the other stuff is because they cannot trust each other. They cannot trust each other because everyone is in it for their own best, not the others best. That's what "reading the social environment" is about: through body language, actions etc. trying to figure out what other people are really up to, because they cannot put that much trust in the words other people tell them, if any.


No, fallacious. It is a sensory way of understanding people, getting to know them and how trust is gradually built up.People have these tools and of course use them, though maybe not you. Of course you cannot trust everyone. That is a naive form of idealism akin to magical thinking. I am not saying this is you, but according to object relations theory I have been reading recently, a quite young child can split parts of himself and magically perceives himself as only good because he cannot integrate both bad and good aspects of himself and others, so he is not truly able to completely individuate and is stuck at a kind of childish state of (lack of) integration. (Put into my own words and maybe not expressed that well...).



littlebee, I might mistake that post for being personal. However, such thoughts are likely merely due to the suggested lack of theory of mind, self-preoccupation, self-centeredness, self-deception, paranoia, childishness and naivety.

I'll let you know when I'll respond to your post in a similar tone of voice. Unlike me, you'll be waiting for a long time. Fortunately, your words speak worlds for themselves.



littlebee wrote:
Quote:
The difference is that that doesn't hurt anyone, but does the opposite. So that is a good thing. My problem is only when people hurt each other socially in sneaky ways.


I think that young people such as in their late teens and early twenties who are having this kind of problem should hang around different people....and also try to focus on themselves and their own development, such as feeling their own feelings instead of just thinking about them---then maybe someday these people will be in a much better position to actually help others.

Of course their is always inquiry...that is helpful.......


You appear to not only be an advocate of what I was referring to - also a persistent practitioner.

I'm glad you know my opinion.



qawer
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21 May 2013, 2:58 pm

qo0op wrote:
There is definitely some truth in it. Recently I was thinking why do I prefer company of "wierd" people instead of the "normal' ones and came to conclusion that it`s like that because "wierd" ones are unable/don`t feel a need to pretend or mask their true nature/feelings to be accepted by others while "normal" ones are doing it naturally and that makes it for me harder to see what is actually their motivation and how do they really feel towards me and that confuses and makes me feel uneasy and a bit paranoid.


This is what I'm referring to. Thanks for your post.

The truth is, some people with good social skills are going to exploit some people with less good social skills. If necessary, those with better social skills are going to get what they want through manipulation.

Knowing how to manipulate and exploit others is an indicator of good social skills. That's why I don't strictly consider good social skills "good". I find it very sad that good survivors often need to be willing to use their social skills in disfavour of their fellow humans. It's frustrating to see it happen.



Last edited by qawer on 21 May 2013, 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

qawer
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21 May 2013, 3:10 pm

littlebee wrote:
qo0op wrote:
There is definitely some truth in it. Recently I was thinking why do I prefer company of "wierd" people instead of the "normal' ones and came to conclusion that it`s like that because "wierd" ones are unable/don`t feel a need to pretend or mask their true nature/feelings to be accepted by others while "normal" ones are doing it naturally and that makes it for me harder to see what is actually their motivation and how do they really feel towards me and that confuses and makes me feel uneasy and a bit paranoid.


Thanks for this message. You are right. There is some kind of truth in it....I was looking from a particular angle and will rethink what I wrote and make some clarifying comments later.


I might have a slight idea what that angle was...



qawer
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21 May 2013, 3:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
qawer wrote:
Studying how those with good social skills go about it, I see they are basically being good a putting on a facade. Being good liars/pretenders. Constantly convincing other people they are in it for their best interest, when in fact they are only in it for their own best interest, not really caring that much about others. Asperger people prefer the truth and are in general bad liars. That results in social skill deficits. How much truth do you find there is to this observation?

Quite a lot, actually.

To be sociable is more about making other people feel good about themselves than about telling the truth.

If you spend 20 minutes telling a coworker that they have every right to feel the way that they do, that you understand completely why they feel that way, and that they can come to you any time to talk about their feelings, then that's expressing "good social skills", right?

But telling them instead that they wouldn't feel so bad if they would check the loo for a full roll before they sit down to do their business (a very practical solution indeed) is considered "blunt" and "insensitive".

:roll: Puh-leeze!


You are right.

But I think one needs to make a distinction.

If you express "good social skills" because you want to help someone, then that really is good social skills! Even when you "lie" the way you expressed it, to do it. Because you go with good intentions.

When you express "good social skills" because you want to trick/manipulate someone, then I don't consider it good social skills at all, just mean behaviour. But still expressing "good social skills" in this case is considered "right" behaviour in society. People doing this are often considered charismatic and at great mental health. That is because they are good survivors, but it is on the expense of their fellow citizens.

That was the motivation for starting this thread.



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21 May 2013, 6:50 pm

NTs often say one thing but mean another depending on context and body language. To be able to understand this signifies that both of you are on the same level and have a certain understanding. Not being able to interpret this "dance" leaves aspies confused and frustrated. The dance is meant to weed out those who can't play along (us).

When I speak with an NT, I play close attention to context, body language, and other cues to get the full message, not just the literal spoken part. I also make sure not to be excessively honest or blunt. I can do the dance better than most aspies.

When talking to an aspie, I'm much more direct, honest, and blunt since other cues will not be perceived. I'm often the go-between for the NT nontech alphas and the aspie geeks who do all the work.



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22 May 2013, 6:05 am

This thread reminds me of what I was thinking about recently. I was wondering whey people seem to exaggerate their responses and expressions with each other. I wondered whether it was because of television, and that people had been affected by the OTT responses and actions of TV presenters, actors etc.

But now I wonder if its because they are trying to put across something in a way that supports pretense.

Consider: If something happens and person A tells person B of it, then person B tells person C, by the time it has gone around a few people and each has added their own exaggerations, then the facts have been distorted and embellished. This happens all the time and it seems natural for people to do it.



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22 May 2013, 7:24 am

krampus wrote:
NTs often say one thing but mean another depending on context and body language. To be able to understand this signifies that both of you are on the same level and have a certain understanding. Not being able to interpret this "dance" leaves aspies confused and frustrated. The dance is meant to weed out those who can't play along (us).

When I speak with an NT, I play close attention to context, body language, and other cues to get the full message, not just the literal spoken part. I also make sure not to be excessively honest or blunt. I can do the dance better than most aspies.

When talking to an aspie, I'm much more direct, honest, and blunt since other cues will not be perceived. I'm often the go-between for the NT nontech alphas and the aspie geeks who do all the work.


Exactly. The "dance" is about manipulating others, showing off your social skills at the expense of others and thereby raising yourself in the social hierarchy. Social status is an invention by the Devil. I hate that social interactions are often about being mean to others.

Parties for young people are often about nothing but this. Never speak too much to someone with a lower status that yours. People might mistake you for having that lower status too. It's awful.



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22 May 2013, 10:22 am

qawer wrote:
krampus wrote:
NTs often say one thing but mean another depending on context and body language. To be able to understand this signifies that both of you are on the same level and have a certain understanding. Not being able to interpret this "dance" leaves aspies confused and frustrated. The dance is meant to weed out those who can't play along (us).

When I speak with an NT, I play close attention to context, body language, and other cues to get the full message, not just the literal spoken part. I also make sure not to be excessively honest or blunt. I can do the dance better than most aspies.

When talking to an aspie, I'm much more direct, honest, and blunt since other cues will not be perceived. I'm often the go-between for the NT nontech alphas and the aspie geeks who do all the work.
...

Exactly. The "dance" is about manipulating others, showing off your social skills at the expense of others and thereby raising yourself in the social hierarchy. Social status is an invention by the Devil. I hate that social interactions are often about being mean to others.

Parties for young people are often about nothing but this. Never speak too much to someone with a lower status that yours. People might mistake you for having that lower status too. It's awful.


I am definitely an aspie, and I cannot say I felt this way when I was younger, but here is the situation now: I am around what many aspies are calling "nt's" all day long and have all kinds of conversations and various interactions, and I am experiencing basic good humor and affection and see these folks feeling it for and with each othe and for me, However it might depend to some degree on the area a person lives in. On my street are many wealthy people I guess could be called yuppies with very fine homes but I live on the end of the block where there are apartments, and these home owners are weird. I get a cold, cut off feeling from them, and I think when I was in high schooland college I did get this same kind of feeling from some people.

The problem I have is blaming ones feelings of being cut-off on other people. That does not seem to be a transformation way of looking at it. It blocks oneself into a box and lessens the chance of ever experiencing something different. I hate to see young people doing this and basically suffering because of their own wrong thinking, but blaming it all on someone else. I see some of the interactions on wrong planet as supporting this kind of bias built on ones own negative emotions and even conditioning and encouraging others, especially young people who are suffering and trying to sort things out, to think in this way, and this causes me a lot of concern and a really deep sorrow. I have been through horrible suffering in my life because of wrong thinking and not being able to make a connection on a certain level with others, and I would hate to see many young people who are still fresh and have a chance to turn many things around go though this kind of suffering. I do not think it is necessary to suffer in the way I did.

The way I see it this forum is for learning, inquiry, discovery, not to just tell people that other people have these character defects and to basically blame ones own social problems on them. I think that is a skewed view. The way to begin to develop compassion is to start to not see these "nt's" as bugs, but to see the commonalities with oneself.

Hopefully honest inquiry will begin to sort some of this stuff out.

Quote:
When I speak with an NT, I play close attention to context, body language, and other cues to get the full message, not just the literal spoken part. I also make sure not to be excessively honest or blunt. I can do the dance better than most aspies.


You have a really creative mind and are trying to figure things out and also have the altruistic motivation to help people, all of which is good, but there is too much labeling and thinking of other people as this or that type, and all of this does involve thinking about oneself and making comparisons with others, which can even be a subtle form of competition.. When there is love, there no time to have these kinds of thoughts. There is a saying---the devil is in the details..



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22 May 2013, 10:36 am

Moondust wrote:
qawer wrote:
How much truth do you find there is to this observation?


50%. Because the other 50% is knowing WHAT to lie, WHO to lie to, WHEN to lie and HOW to lie. If you're not good at knowing this, better not try lying.


:lmao:

Sorry.