Reading the mind in the eyes eyes not so difficult for HFA.

Page 2 of 3 [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Schneekugel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,944

27 May 2013, 3:09 am

I did very good in the test, and my therapist also was very surprised by that. The problem is that in reality noone gives me 5 minutes to look at one expression them, but instead when talking to you one minute you have about 25 expressions that are moving all the time and additional you are supposed to do talking, so you cant concentrate on the impressions that are changing anyway much to fast.



Falo
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 24 May 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 14

08 Jun 2013, 2:59 am

Schneekugel wrote:
I did very good in the test, and my therapist also was very surprised by that. The problem is that in reality noone gives me 5 minutes to look at one expression them, but instead when talking to you one minute you have about 25 expressions that are moving all the time and additional you are supposed to do talking, so you cant concentrate on the impressions that are changing anyway much to fast.


Reading a lot of your answers, althpough I do not know your individual cases, I have the feeling that a lot of you have been convinced that they are worst than what they actually are. I really think that some of you get diagnosed "Asperger", and that this diagnostic have convinced them that they will never be able to interact properly. In this sense this diagnostic may in some cases do more harm that good. In my job, I was discussing something in a reunion and some people did not agree with me. It wasn't necessary to read subtle expression on the face to understand it. They said it blatantly raising their voice. It was obvious that what I have said did not please them. If a person want to tell you something, he usually is more explicit than having a sublte expression on his face. Moreover, I usually only differentiate good feeling,pleasure (usually the person smile) vs bad feeling feeling, angry. I score very bad on the reading the mind in the eyes test (17-18), but I still have the feeling that it is not a big deal in everyday situation.

I really think that many people here think that so called NT people are much better than what they really are. The main problem seems to be more related to self esteem that an actual difficulty. And even if you are slightly below average that should not be a big deal. A lot of "NT" people have defaults (bad character, unable to compromise, unpleasant, pretentious, irascible, speaking allways about oneself) that may pose bigger problems than a slight difficulty to read mind. Someone say in an answer that he did understood someone mind in a Harry Potter moovie. Is it that a big deal? You do not have to interact with a character in a moovie. A lot of people did not understood something in a moovie; they usually do not worry about that and if they do they usually blame the realisator than themseves.



Last edited by Falo on 08 Jun 2013, 3:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

rdos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,813
Location: Sweden

08 Jun 2013, 3:05 am

The truth is that the Minds in the eyes test have no relevance for BAP, and might not even have any relevance for ASD either.



Falo
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 24 May 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 14

08 Jun 2013, 3:32 am

rdos wrote:
The truth is that the Minds in the eyes test have no relevance for BAP, and might not even have any relevance for ASD either.


In the end, what is exactly ASD? Some people may have real and visible troubles (delay in language acquisition, monotone voice). But I believe it is not the case for most people here. The reality is that some people here suffer from conditions such as depression and low self esteem. They have consulted a "specialist" and this "specialist" convinced them that their brain is wired differently. The consequence is that they are still more convinced that they are abnormal while the reality is that they are just more introvert than the average. Reading a lot of your post, and although I was not diagnosed, I have the feeling that I score more Asperger than many of you here. But I completely disagree with psychiatrists that diagnose adult people "Asperger" although they have pursued normal schooling and that no condition has been diagnosed as a child. At least what I said is true for middle age people like me. Because children these days get diagnosed for no valid reason. If I had been a child now, I would probably be diagnosed Asperger, but hopefully for me, they were more reasonable in the 70's and I was allowed to be normal. (As I said in my introductory post, I was a child in the 70's. The teacher noticed that I did not intercat with other children, I even had stims. She decided I had to pass psychiatric/psychological tests. But they test an above than average IQ and that was sufficient to be normal in those days. I am almost certain it would not be the case now).

They do not have any evidence that the brain is wired differently. Their diagnosis is purely based on behavior that according to their DSM is abnormal. But this DSM is not a medical nor a scientific thing, it is a list of behaviors that they decided with a vote they were abnormal with the notion of normality greatly dependent of their vision of society. It is more a political thing that a medical thing. I say it honestly, I have great sympathy for the antipsyciatry movement.



whirlingmind
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,130
Location: 3rd rock from the sun

08 Jun 2013, 4:43 am

Falo wrote:
rdos wrote:
The truth is that the Minds in the eyes test have no relevance for BAP, and might not even have any relevance for ASD either.


In the end, what is exactly ASD? Some people may have real and visible troubles (delay in language acquisition, monotone voice). But I believe it is not the case for most people here. The reality is that some people here suffer from conditions such as depression and low self esteem. They have consulted a "specialist" and this "specialist" convinced them that their brain is wired differently. The consequence is that they are still more convinced that they are abnormal while the reality is that they are just more introvert than the average. Reading a lot of your post, and although I was not diagnosed, I have the feeling that I score more Asperger than many of you here. But I completely disagree with psychiatrists that diagnose adult people "Asperger" although they have pursued normal schooling and that no condition has been diagnosed as a child. At least what I said is true for middle age people like me. Because children these days get diagnosed for no valid reason. If I had been a child now, I would probably be diagnosed Asperger, but hopefully for me, they were more reasonable in the 70's and I was allowed to be normal. (As I said in my introductory post, I was a child in the 70's. The teacher noticed that I did not intercat with other children, I even had stims. She decided I had to pass psychiatric/psychological tests. But they test an above than average IQ and that was sufficient to be normal in those days. I am almost certain it would not be the case now).

They do not have any evidence that the brain is wired differently. Their diagnosis is purely based on behavior that according to their DSM is abnormal. But this DSM is not a medical nor a scientific thing, it is a list of behaviors that they decided with a vote they were abnormal with the notion of normality greatly dependent of their vision of society. It is more a political thing that a medical thing. I say it honestly, I have great sympathy for the antipsyciatry movement.


You said in your OP that you live in "French speaking Europe", well if it's France itself they have a barbaric attitude to autism so count yourself lucky in that case, that you aren't a child now.

You are making ridiculous statements about people on the forum you know nothing about. You see shreds of their musings and questions on here, nothing more. Perhaps there are a small minority that are undiagnosed that don't have AS, are just wondering, but the fact that they feel different enough from everyone around them and suffer similar traits means at the end of the day it doesn't matter if they have AS or not. What matters is not so much the cause for their traits but that they have those same traits and they can meet like-minded people here. WP welcomes neuro-diverse people and you make it sound as if they have no right to be here!

You also seem to be thumbing your nose at people saying "nah, nah, nah, nah, nah - I'm more autistic than you!" This is not some elitist competition. Again, you cannot judge anything about peoples' diagnoses from online interactions, did you never hear of masking skills or adaptation over many years - done at the cost of great emotional exhaustion, which at times can lead to mental ill health!

Oh, and FYI, yes they do have evidence that the autistic brain is wired differently - where have you been!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... lents.html

http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/pa ... l_FMRI.pdf

http://www.autism.org.uk/about-autism/r ... utism.aspx

Quote:
Structural imaging has taught us that:

people with an ASD may have larger brains
in early childhood, the brains of people with an ASD grow unusually fast
brain structure may be different in people with an ASD, but research findings are inconsistent
the connections between different areas of the brain may be different in people with an ASD.

Functional imaging has taught us that:

parts of the brain that are typically involved in understanding emotions have different patterns of activity in people with an ASD
parts of the brain involved in recognising faces have different patterns of activity in people with an ASD (in fact they may not be active at all)
parts of the brain that are active when we take part in social activities may be affected in people with an ASD.


http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/news/ ... -biomarker

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/ne ... ith-autism

http://news.unchealthcare.org/news/2012 ... lop-autism

...there are loads more, but I can't be bothered to go to any more effort.


_________________
*Truth fears no trial*

DX AS & both daughters on the autistic spectrum

http://www.planetautism.wix.com/one-stop-shop


Falo
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 24 May 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 14

08 Jun 2013, 6:22 am

I just make a general statement about what I think is the case for many people in these forums but I do not speak about a particular one.

I have read a book from Antoine Ouelette (French speaking Quebecese-Canadian, do a Google search for more detail) that was diagnosed Asperger at the age of 47 and moreover I had the opportunity to meet him briefly in a conference that made here in Europe. He has got a PhD and was diagnosed because he sought help from psychiatrists for an anxiety problem. He has a job at the University and all his colleagues were surprised by that diagnosis. By reading his book in details, I am convinced that if he was diagnosed Asperger, I would most probably be diagnosed too, because I have many symptoms even more pronounced than what he describes, including in childhood.

I was not attacking anybody on this forum but psychiatry and psychiatrists in general. I have no doubt that many people here have been or would have been diagnosed Asperger. But as in the case above, I definitely thinks that this is nonsense to tell someone he suffer from a severe ASD trouble just because he have sought the help of a psychiatrist because he was anxious; while his entourage did not notice an abnormality (I say an abnormality, everyone is different, so seeing a "difference" is not something abnormal). He is definitely able to behave properly in a social situation.

Now for the links about the brain scans, we do not know exactly in what ways these people were autistic. Some people have real and visible trouble and I suspect most people called "autistic" belong to this category. However it is true that brain scan are now able to see a lot of things including our feeling. So they might see that you are less good in say maths, music, etc. But that does not make you abnormal, the title "abnormal" is entirely subjective according to their view of society.

I definitively think that the approach of the '70 was much better. They diagnosed people with a psychiatric disease (including autism) were they really had a disease (at least significant speech delay for autism) and I agree that people showing these symptoms could be diagnosed autistic and need support. However, I thinks it make no sense to diagnose people autistic if they have a normal IQ and no signified speech delay. They decide people are ill just because of a small eccentricity that they do not like.

Look at schizophrenia. Studies tends to show that schizophrenia has a better outcome in developing countries were the patient has no access to psychiatrists and neuroleptic and is supported by his community/family members. Read that twice community support in developing countries do better than psychiatry. In the field of psychiatry, a traditional healer from a developing country is better than an occidental psychiatrist! We are in the situation where in many cases psychiatry does more harm than good. Unfortunately people in developing countries have now more and more access to modern psychiatry and drugs, so the difference is shrinking in their disfavour.

http://tinyurl.com/o383wj7 and http://tinyurl.com/7kacdsc

P.S. I am not living in France but in Belgium.



The_Hemulen
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 19 Apr 2013
Age: 30
Gender: Female
Posts: 83
Location: UK

08 Jun 2013, 7:12 am

Falo wrote:
I have read a book from Antoine Ouelette (French speaking Quebecese-Canadian, do a Google search for more detail) that was diagnosed Asperger at the age of 47 and moreover I had the opportunity to meet him briefly in a conference that made here in Europe. He has got a PhD and was diagnosed because he sought help from psychiatrists for an anxiety problem. He has a job at the University and all his colleagues were surprised by that diagnosis.


Ok, so his Asperger's was not obvious to non-experts, but he sought help because he was actually having a **problem**, not just for the sake of it. Although some of the problems that can result from Asperger's are ones which affect everybody in a general way, e.g. depression and anxiety, it is often only possible to treat them effectively if you understand that the person is on the autistic spectrum. Before you try to solve a problem, you need to understand the origin and the workings of the problem in detail. Traditional social anxiety treatments do not work on me because they assume a neurotypical way of thinking about social situations and of relating to the therapist. Even in borderline cases, if the person was seeking treatment because they had an actual problem, then the diagnosis is likely to be useful rather than harmful.



whirlingmind
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,130
Location: 3rd rock from the sun

08 Jun 2013, 7:35 am

Falo wrote:
I just make a general statement about what I think is the case for many people in these forums but I do not speak about a particular one.

I'm aware of that. And you are insulting all the people here who are diagnosed, and have very good reason to be diagnosed. You are not a doctor, clearly. If there were no such thing as AS or autism then the diagnoses would not exist. Healthy people who have no neurological disorder do not go looking for a diagnosis for no reason! Many did not even go looking either, they were assessed because their problems were noticed - problems being that they were abnormal behaviours.

I have read a book from Antoine Ouelette (French speaking Quebecese-Canadian, do a Google search for more detail) that was diagnosed Asperger at the age of 47 and moreover I had the opportunity to meet him briefly in a conference that made here in Europe. He has got a PhD and was diagnosed because he sought help from psychiatrists for an anxiety problem. He has a job at the University and all his colleagues were surprised by that diagnosis. By reading his book in details, I am convinced that if he was diagnosed Asperger, I would most probably be diagnosed too, because I have many symptoms even more pronounced than what he describes, including in childhood.

I don't understand your point. If you are saying that his AS would never have been noticed had he not gone for treatment for anxiety, and that this means he never needed the diagnosis you are very wrong. The co-morbid anxiety which is a feature with most people on the spectrum, is enough of a problem in itself and is a direct result of struggling to cope with hiding their traits and attempting to be normal in society. People can have mental breakdowns over this! People have been hospitalised in mental institutions over this! Are you saying all of this is irrelevant!

I was not attacking anybody on this forum but psychiatry and psychiatrists in general. I have no doubt that many people here have been or would have been diagnosed Asperger. But as in the case above, I definitely thinks that this is nonsense to tell someone he suffer from a severe ASD trouble just because he have sought the help of a psychiatrist because he was anxious; while his entourage did not notice an abnormality (I say an abnormality, everyone is different, so seeing a "difference" is not something abnormal). He is definitely able to behave properly in a social situation.

Look I agree that there are general cases where psychiatry pathologises where it isn't necessarily needed. But I disagree that autism spectrum conditions are one of those cases. You are comparing unique differences between the general population to actual neurological differences causing a set of traits. Syndrome means a collection of traits that added together make up the syndrome. This doesn't mean that one or two of those traits are not found in the general population. It means that they exist in a combination and to a degree as a recognisable syndrome. Diagnosis is all about the level of impairment. That doesn't mean that it has to be impairment visible to others. Who are you to say that Monsieur Ouelette was not debilitated by his inner turmoils and struggles to adapt and fit in within society?

Now for the links about the brain scans, we do not know exactly in what ways these people were autistic. Some people have real and visible trouble and I suspect most people called "autistic" belong to this category. However it is true that brain scan are now able to see a lot of things including our feeling. So they might see that you are less good in say maths, music, etc. But that does not make you abnormal, the title "abnormal" is entirely subjective according to their view of society.

The normal brain and how it appears including measurements (within which naturally scientists will have incorporated natural variation) is obviously identified at this point in science. So therefore it follows that they can now identify the differences which count as abnormalities. There clearly have been a lot of studies on this - are you going to say you know more than them? It appears you didn't read the information from the links either because it even lists what the differences are and shows in graphics too. Scientists would not say "this is an abnormality" if they didn't know what the normal version was like!

I definitively think that the approach of the '70 was much better. They diagnosed people with a psychiatric disease (including autism) were they really had a disease (at least significant speech delay for autism) and I agree that people showing these symptoms could be diagnosed autistic and need support. However, I thinks it make no sense to diagnose people autistic if they have a normal IQ and no signified speech delay. They decide people are ill just because of a small eccentricity that they do not like.

You clearly have narrow, outdated views. Autism spectrum conditions can be an invisible disability. This is the single biggest complaint of HFA and AS people. Because they are not in nappies, running round hand-flapping and banging their heads and being non-verbal, people think there is nothing wrong. Let me tell you, I have a diagnosis of AS and I definitely have it, and there is definitely a lot wrong. You really need to do some lengthy research, read autistic peoples' blogs, read what enlightened clinicians have to say, read the British NAS website, just...read. You will see how your view is really wrong.

Look at schizophrenia. Studies tends to show that schizophrenia has a better outcome in developing countries were the patient has no access to psychiatrists and neuroleptic and is supported by his community/family members. Read that twice community support in developing countries do better than psychiatry. In the field of psychiatry, a traditional healer from a developing country is better than an occidental psychiatrist! We are in the situation where in many cases psychiatry does more harm than good. Unfortunately people in developing countries have now more and more access to modern psychiatry and drugs, so the difference is shrinking in their disfavour.

Schizophrenia may have a better outcome in those countries because society is easier for the human being to live in where they are. Western societies are incredibly stressful, materialistic and pressuring. Very hard for people with autism. It may have nothing to do with the lack of psychiatric interventions in developing countries. I agree that this is an area where psychiatry is over-zealous, the prescription of drugs, but don't forget that many diagnosed schizophrenics have previously been misdiagnosed (and this is in the developed world) and were actually autistics, So in the developed countries where pharmacology is used on misdiagnosed autistics in the belief they are schizophrenics, of course there will be adverse reactions and worsening of their conditions because they are on drugs which are not meant for them and do more harm than good. There are people who are drugged up like this and stuck in institutions and forgotten about. No-one bothers to go back and look at their case and take them off the drugs and test them for autism. Hopefully this happens less these days because clinicians are improving on recognising autism. Developing countries will be catching up but possibly going on older science and also falling into the same mistakes about misdiagnosing autism as schizophrenia and giving the wrong drugs (and unnecessary drugs).

http://tinyurl.com/o383wj7 and http://tinyurl.com/7kacdsc

P.S. I am not living in France but in Belgium.


_________________
*Truth fears no trial*

DX AS & both daughters on the autistic spectrum

http://www.planetautism.wix.com/one-stop-shop


Falo
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 24 May 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 14

09 Jun 2013, 2:56 am

Sorry, my message appeared twice, probably due to a technical error in my part. I delete the redundant one.



Last edited by Falo on 09 Jun 2013, 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Falo
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 24 May 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 14

09 Jun 2013, 2:56 am

whirlingmind wrote:
I'm aware of that. And you are insulting all the people here who are diagnosed, and have very good reason to be diagnosed. You are not a doctor, clearly. If there were no such thing as AS or autism then the diagnoses would not exist. Healthy people who have no neurological disorder do not go looking for a diagnosis for no reason! Many did not even go looking either, they were assessed because their problems were noticed - problems being that they were abnormal behaviours.


If I was insulting someone, this was psychiatrists, surely no one on these forums. I may disagree with some but SURELY I do not insult them. Probably adults do not seek a diagnostic for no reason as you said. But children yes. You know, and here I speak only for myself, I had problems that were noticed bu the teacher as a child (not interacting with other children + some stims) and the teacher decides I had to pass psychiatric/psychological tests and definitively recognize me in most autistic traits as an adult. I cannot say for sure they would have been diagnosed me Asperger if I were a child now but I think most probably yes. The fact is that I am happy I was not diagnosed. Because I could have followed normal schooling without being labelled with some disease. The simple fact of being labelled with some disease as a cost, because it stigmatizes him. Now they are people that clearly need some help, but will psychiatry provides this help? In many cases, people need much less drugs and much more psychological support and it is not what psychiatry usually offer.

whirlingmind wrote:
Look I agree that there are general cases where psychiatry pathologises where it isn't necessarily needed. But I disagree that autism spectrum conditions are one of those cases. You are comparing unique differences between the general population to actual neurological differences causing a set of traits. Syndrome means a collection of traits that added together make up the syndrome. This doesn't mean that one or two of those traits are not found in the general population. It means that they exist in a combination and to a degree as a recognisable syndrome. Diagnosis is all about the level of impairment. That doesn't mean that it has to be impairment visible to others. Who are you to say that Monsieur Ouelette was not debilitated by his inner turmoils and struggles to adapt and fit in within society?


He has written a whole book over his life describing in great detail and his internal thoughts (MUSIQUE AUTISTE. Vivre et composer avec le syndrome d'Asperger). It is a 300 pages book with a lot of details. This book was public, so I can comment from what he writes in his book. I do not think there is something really important about his struggles that he did not mention in his book. He has struggled especially during his childhood were he was severely bullied. But I still do not thing he deserves a psychiatric label. Clearly I think that it was his schoolmates that had a problem, not him (whatever symptoms he might have had, the bullying he describes is intolerable). I was especially hit by this book because he describes a personality that resemble a lot to mine including the childhood (although the bullying was present but less severe in my case, but I think it is due to my schoolmates being more educated, not my behavior which was as weird if not more than what he describes). As I said above, the teacher did notice something abnormal with me (not with him).

whirlingmind wrote:
You clearly have narrow, outdated views. Autism spectrum conditions can be an invisible disability. This is the single biggest complaint of HFA and AS people. Because they are not in nappies, running round hand-flapping and banging their heads and being non-verbal, people think there is nothing wrong. Let me tell you, I have a diagnosis of AS and I definitely have it, and there is definitely a lot wrong. You really need to do some lengthy research, read autistic peoples' blogs, read what enlightened clinicians have to say, read the British NAS website, just...read. You will see how your view is really wrong.


I do not have a narrow view of ASD. What I say is that psychiatrists have pathologized an eccentricity that some people have. If you do a little reading, you will see that what is considered a pathology is decided by a vote without much transparency. I would make a parallel with homosexuality. A few decades ago, it was declared a disease and it was supposed to be cured. Surely in the world as it was homosexuality did pose a problem and homosexuals had to hide their traits as much as they can if they want to be integrated in the society. But the vision of the society towards homosexual have changed and they have removed the "condition" accordingly. They were however no medical reasons for doing so, as I claim they were no medical reason to consider homosexuality a disease in the first place. People that wanted homosexuality removed from the DSM were not doctors either. ASD is large but I claim that many autistic people (especially Asperger) are the new homosexuals. People that have some form of eccentricities that should be accepted by the society rather than being pathologized. You know it may well be possible to see brain scan differences in homosexual people, although such studies would not be politically correct now. What we need is a society that tolerates some eccentricities, not a society that pathogize them. Psychiatric wants to pathologize a lot of behavior and this has consequence on the society in general. They may not monopolize the debate on the fact they are doctors. That's not democracy.

whirlingmind wrote:
Schizophrenia may have a better outcome in those countries because society is easier for the human being to live in where they are. Western societies are incredibly stressful, materialistic and pressuring. Very hard for people with autism. It may have nothing to do with the lack of psychiatric interventions in developing countries. I agree that this is an area where psychiatry is over-zealous, the prescription of drugs, but don't forget that many diagnosed schizophrenics have previously been misdiagnosed (and this is in the developed world) and were actually autistics, So in the developed countries where pharmacology is used on misdiagnosed autistics in the belief they are schizophrenics, of course there will be adverse reactions and worsening of their conditions because they are on drugs which are not meant for them and do more harm than good. There are people who are drugged up like this and stuck in institutions and forgotten about. No-one bothers to go back and look at their case and take them off the drugs and test them for autism. Hopefully this happens less these days because clinicians are improving on recognising autism. Developing countries will be catching up but possibly going on older science and also falling into the same mistakes about misdiagnosing autism as schizophrenia and giving the wrong drugs (and unnecessary drugs).[/b]


Someone in my family has been diagnosed schizophrenic but he refuses to follow any treatment. The truth is that they label schizophrenic any people that have a weird behavior and put these people on harmful drugs. I can well believe that autistic people were previously misdiagnosed as schizophrenic. But even if they did not know what autism was they have no excuse for putting a wrong diagnostic and use harmful drugs without knowing what they were doing. They could just have said "we don't know what you have". Maybe they have ceased to misdiagnose people with autism with schizophrenia but they still diagnose schizophrenic people with conditions they do not understand. If you do a little search you will see that many schizophrenia are drug resistant. But you seem to agree that they may be over zealous with drugs. You say yourself that some autistic people are still in a mental hospital now on schizophrenic drugs. Do you realize how it is intolerable? No other physician will hospitalizes you for a very long term, giving you harmful drugs unless he is sure that the drugs have a positive effect. A normal physician may give you a wrong drug based on a wrong diagnostic but will not insist you continue to take it if it has no clear positive effects. He will follow the evolution of the disease, evaluate if the effect of the drug is positive and be prepared to revise his diagnostic. The problem is more profound than a wrong diagnostic, the problem resides in the attitude of psychiatrists. It is shocking that in most western countries, psychiatrists can look people up in mental hospital without their consent on the simple basis they present a danger for themselves. You can refuses to be treated for an harmful cancer but often not for a psychiatric disease. There is a small advance in Belgium when you need the agreement of a judge to lock someone up in a mental hospital, but Ii is still possible.



rdos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,813
Location: Sweden

09 Jun 2013, 4:55 am

I agree with Falo. Psychiatrists in general (including researchers) have no idea what they are doing, and are giving diagnosis and drugs that have no credible science behind them. The situation is worse for schizophrenia, where supernatural beliefs could easily give you a schizophrenia label + forced medication. This should not be acceptable in a civilized society, but it still happens.

As for ASD, and related neurodiversity conditions, they are 2/3 based in different biology and 1/3 in discrimination, and any treatment or diagnosis that doesn't take this into account is not helping anybody. It is only classical autism with mental retardation that is the exception here, but there are no cures for that.

In regard to neurodiverse people in developping countries, I not only think their situation is better because of a lack of psychiatrists, but because of a more accepting culture, which includes stable families and meaningful things to do, something that we also had not so long ago when these things were more or less unheard of.

Neurodiversity is not a problem of individuals, it is a problem of culture and society, and until that is accepted, there will be no advances in understanding neurodiversity.



whirlingmind
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,130
Location: 3rd rock from the sun

09 Jun 2013, 7:28 am

Oh right. So my sensory issues, which cause me significant problems are just neurodiversity and I wouldn't have them/they wouldn't matter if I lived in a developing country :roll: .


_________________
*Truth fears no trial*

DX AS & both daughters on the autistic spectrum

http://www.planetautism.wix.com/one-stop-shop


rdos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,813
Location: Sweden

09 Jun 2013, 8:22 am

whirlingmind wrote:
Oh right. So my sensory issues, which cause me significant problems are just neurodiversity and I wouldn't have them/they wouldn't matter if I lived in a developing country :roll: .


Yes, sensory issues are neurodiversity. There is little doubt about that. They can even be advantageous in primitive settings.



whirlingmind
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,130
Location: 3rd rock from the sun

09 Jun 2013, 8:28 am

Oh right. So as I have great sensitivity to light and temperature (amongst others), I shall move forthwith to Africa (developing country) from the UK (a developed country) and it won't matter that the year-round incessant sunshine and heat make me go crazy. I mean after all, it will be an advantageous thing to me, especially in such a primitive environment where I will also be closer to my roots...all 2.7% of my neanderthal DNA will feel right at home I'm sure. :lmao:


_________________
*Truth fears no trial*

DX AS & both daughters on the autistic spectrum

http://www.planetautism.wix.com/one-stop-shop


rdos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,813
Location: Sweden

09 Jun 2013, 8:39 am

whirlingmind wrote:
Oh right. So as I have great sensitivity to light and temperature (amongst others), I shall move forthwith to Africa (developing country) from the UK (a developed country) and it won't matter that the year-round incessant sunshine and heat make me go crazy. I mean after all, it will be an advantageous thing to me, especially in such a primitive environment where I will also be closer to my roots...all 2.7% of my neanderthal DNA will feel right at home I'm sure. :lmao:


Africa? You should know that neurodiverse people are not adapted to living in the tropics. You could try Greenland or something instead? Or the large woods in Northern Scandinavia, where your sensory issues would mean little. :wink:

In fact, any place outside of western cities would probably do.