Are you aware of your lacking Theory of Mind?

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There's a difference between making a projection based on previously determined facts (most people in the above circumstance are looking for something), and a "guess".

I've used this definition of Weak Central Coherence:

"Weak central coherence: an inability to bring together various details from perception to make a
meaningful whole"

Weak Central Coherence

I definitely agree that autistics have enhanced perception of details - but normal perception of the gestalt...isn't that what is autistics problem? Do you disagree with what is written in the above link about Weak Central Coherence:

cool. thank you for the simple breakdown.

i also do not see how the two connect.

also, ive never seen theory of mind applied to ones self, only to ones understanding of others.

is this the OPs own theory? they say the best information we can get out of a theory is a peak into the psyche of the theorist.

Theory of mind




Of course one could question Wikipedia as any other source.

But I actually think it's true that autistics are less able to attribute mental states to themselves due to lacking ToM, unless done through some coping mechanism, i.e. not naturally.

Is it possible that Autism is a result of the brain reconfiguring itself while it's still developing due to some sort of injury? (Not necessarily physical trauma.) I can't totally ignore the hereditary factor because I have other family members on the spectrum and it's not very likely we all suffered a brain injury, but I personally found out I did have a head injury as a young child. I did not know this until I was an adult and had an MRI. Maybe I was NT until I suffered that trauma. Perhaps that could also explain the apparent vaccination link where they say the child was developing normally and then regressed after being vaccinated.

I don't know how anyone can figure that ToM is causative of executive function problems or vice versa.

Yes, I do. Read the link to Dawson and Mottron's study.

The Weak Central Coherence theory was thought up to explain the Block Design peak that is common among autistics. (They can't let an autistic strength be an autistic strength, no, they have to make it a weakness.) However, this actually makes no sense, because someone with weak central coherence would actually do very poorly at Block Design.

See, the Block Design task requires that you segment the image into equally sized squares, regardless of the color contours. This is not how the perceptual system (autistic or NT) naturally segments things. (And I know the autistic perceptual system doesn't segment this way because that would impede very basic skills such as grasping objects.) We naturally segment things along color contours and inferred objects, and in the harder Block Design items you need to overcome that tendency in order to well. (People with Williams Syndrome can't overcome that tendency, and try to reproduce the color contours while not maintaining a square shape.)

So the biggest argument for autistics having weak central coherence falls to pieces when you examine it more closely.

Also, this quote:



That's not central coherence, that's working memory. Completely different skill. (And yes, autistics often have poor working memory - it's part of executive function. But poor working memory has nothing to do with weak central coherence.)

TLDR-version: Use critical thinking. Everyone no matter their empathy-level must learn. I love sociology a lot and want to make it mandatory for everyone

I wonder why people let Freud run around and say sex (and cocks) was the most important thing for humans. But psychology have moved a bit past that (I hope neuroscience will enable it to catch up) and there are lots of other branches that study humans. I am a bit shocked by the suggestion that they are all wrong. Obviously, autistics do not think like NTs. Most fields discuss NTs, so from our perspective they are somewhat wrong. But wrong for the general population? I don't know.
Sociologists are doing a pretty good job using statistics and surveys, so then they know what people say they think at least. There are lots of important thinking and speculation too, so its not just data.
I think solid cross-disciplinary learning about human nature will result in a better theory of mind, due to the time spent thinking about how humans work.
Of course you'll have to use critical thinking when learning too.
You could be born with "strong empathy", but even then you would have to hone it somehow. It is the same thing as "inborn talent" in anything - people dismiss how much work talented people have put into their area of expertise, which both elevates and discredits them at the same time.

i am reading what you're saying. i dont mean to argue, but only to disagree. even in dissociation, wikipedia suggests that 'most' do not want to separate derealization from depersonalization because ones view of the world, self and others are all inseparable. this sounds fun to believe in a unifying way, but i know i have moments when i literally get scared (spooked might be a better word for it) thinking about how another person is a whole other real person and i never think that i am not real.

Here's a brilliant talk that mentions something similar:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFt7EzpsZQo[/youtube]

Personally, I believe that Central Coherence, Theory of Mind and Executive Functioning are closely related. That these are merely manifestations of how the autistic brain processes complex information. I believe that poor working memory plays a huge part because these seem to be (at least for me) “real time” deficits.

With unlimited time (i.e. time for thought, reflection and, particularly, time to ask detailed/probing questions to my heart's desire), these deficits magically disappear (for me).

It seems like others in the WP community can “bypass” these issues via intellectualization. Which means it requires them to think about it. Rather than being “intuitive” (which, in effect, is “real time”).

I agree with this I think they're all tied together and influence one another. When I have unlimited time and no distractions and a quiet environment my reading comprehension including making social/ emotional inferences is quite good but I can't make these inferences and apply them (or even really basic ones) in real time social interaction.

Isn't working memory one of the executive functions? There are tests that can measure working memory without being influenced by processing speed.

Maybe what happens in real life is that most tasks require all three skills. Could a deficit in one function place a burden on the others to compensate making them appear to be impaired as well?

I would also take into account sensory processing differences and general social processing speed (unless this is related to executive functioning?). Many people I know on the spectrum have issues with one or both of these things and this interferes with their ability to gather, respond, and process social information. I also used to have very slow social processing speed, but this changed due to exposure to social situations and by spotting predictable patterns within them.

I never said people can't learn and I never said psychology is all wrong. I just think people have this tendency to follow established thinking and don't bother to use their own intuition enough. I'm not saying I'm always right or anything, but I do find that using my own intuition to look for explanations is more fun than reading what studies have to say. This is how I like to think about science in general. If I'm wrong at first, so be it. I'm usually more open to persuasion and changing my beliefs than others too. I don't discredit book learning completely as it's good to have a starting point. I just think people tend to spend too much time reading what others have to say and this diminishes their ability to learn objectively. I don't think this is arrogant.

I don't think innate theory-of-mind is necessarily 100% accurate either. If you really think about it, it isn't necessarily an evolutionary advantage to know exactly how others think all the time. Prejudice and delusion can be a survival advantage. Knowing too much about what others are thinking can be sometimes be a disadvantage in real life. Some things you are probably better off not knowing. Even self-delusion can be a valuable psychological survival tool. NTs seem to be better than aspies at positive self-delusion.

I could be wrong, but I presumed that there was a causal relationship between poor Working Memory and Executive Functioning. That is, poor Working Memory causes issues with Executive Functioning. For me, I am suggesting the same is true for Central Coherence and Theory of Mind.

Note: I presume other things could cause issues with Executive Functioning. But for me, the main contributor (according to the psychologist who diagnosed me) was issues with complex Working Memory.

I believe I have Theory of Mind deficiencies due to an inability to Multi-Task. According to Tony Attwood, Theory of Mind is defined as, “the ability to recognize and understand thoughts, beliefs, desires and intentions of other people in order to make sense of their behavior and predict what they are going to do next”. That requires a lot of Multi-Tasking. And, poor Working Memory also causes issues with Multi-Tasking (at least for me, according to the psychologist who diagnosed me).

As part of my diagnosis, the psychologist used the Wechsler Memory Scale (WMS-IV), the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS-IV) and the Wisconsin Card Sorting Test (WCST-R).

I agree that both sensory processing differences and overall processing speed can impair things as well. I was mostly reflecting on my own situation, which is mostly impacted by complex working memory.

You can imagine a "controlled" environment, where the sensory processing differences are "muted". In such an environment, I would still have issues with Central Coherence, Theory of Mind and Executive Functioning.

I am fortunate that my general processing speed is OK. It's not exceptional. But, it's good enough (to not be the primary cause of deficiencies in those areas).