Nothing but a lazy, conniving liar......I am lost...

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Wibbly
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11 Jun 2013, 10:05 pm

I put so much effort into our son. GOOD counselling, special diet, research, love, teaching strong morals (that everyone else thinks he has cos he charms them)....

But he is just like his nasty, lying, egocentric grandfather and great, great grandfather. As long as they get what they want - or what they think they want - then they are jealous of those who do well.....like his brother, who puts his whole heart into everything.

I have nothing left to give my son and I am NOT putting any more money down the drain for any more help for him bar essential stuff left from Irlens Syndrome.

HOW do I survive a child who really is sociopathic........I am an Aspie who "cannot" lie........so is my hubby.

He is who he is - he has chosen it. He knows how to choose truth. He is going to fail correspondence school because he only has been doing half the work necessary - and our financial circumstances are dire thru no fault of our own so I have had to be working part time to survive and have not had the ability to check on his work every day.

And my husband works so hard.......

HOW do we survive him until he is independent enuff to leave home? That is all the love I have at the moment - all he brings me is grief - doubled by the fact that I am so easily fecking fooled into thinking he's doing as he "should" be.......the same circle over and over and over......

:cry:



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11 Jun 2013, 10:12 pm

I hear your desperation, exasperation, and exhaustion, but unfortunately, I do not know what to say to help. I don't even know how to sensitively phrase the questions I want to ask.

I just want you to know someone read what you wrote and I am sorry things are so hard right now. I hope someone else will know what to say.


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Wibbly
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11 Jun 2013, 10:18 pm

I don;t mind if you ask questions.....funnily enough I'm not easily offended.....just lies really get to me. And he has done it since he was 7 years old. He's almost 17. Immature. Can be beautiful, loving, encouraging, thoughtful, kind....even truthful....unless he wants what he wants and then the world can go to hell in a handcart if it gets it for him.

Tears only for himself when there are consequences. We keep thinking we have "got thru".....but it just keeps happening.....

JUST to get him thru - I am going to have to somehow sit on him for 8 hours a day study, as well as doing all the other things I do.....



murbark
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11 Jun 2013, 10:30 pm

Just keep loving him unconditionally. That is your job. Try reading Scattered Minds by Gabor Mate. It might enlighten you on how to deal with a troubled young man.



Wibbly
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11 Jun 2013, 10:41 pm

Thank you. I might. At this point - I just want him to be someone else's problem. And that book would cost money. I know it could possibly help - but I also know exactly "why" he is lying......

control.....he's an Aspie that is sociopathic in his desire to control everything and to have everyone else be wrong just so he can feel good. But there is the dichotomy for him that he "knows" it doesn't work - he always gets caught - but he doesn;t care in the end.

He's somehow sure it will work one day and that the whole world will apologise for being so mean.

I have no more unconditional love left for him. I guess that's my Aspie black/white.......but I have worked SO hard for ten years.....and nothing but his overall health has changed - when he can be bothered taking all the allergy and asthma meds......

I just don't want to be a parent anymore. I didn't in the first place - then he was such a joy as a toddler - so quiet, so compliant (with a few exceptions), so loving.....so able to concentrate, so eager to learn and help.....then he turned 7. And we have been living in a circle of thinking we're ok, making progress......then nightmarish realisations that he doesn;t give a flying bat poop.....

And I see his future - lonely, broken relationships.....grabbing, cheating, lying......and I die more inside.....yet I thought I coudln;t anymore.....

I will try considering your book suggestion......I have so much with the other son being dyslexic and genuine ADHD....



GregCav
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12 Jun 2013, 12:14 am

It sounds like he is heading for an epic Fail at life.

Which is very sad considering the effort you've put in to avoid just that.

I've done the two jobs to pay for support thing, and I know very well how it destroys the soul. You get to a point where you just can not care any more. The work, the time, the effort, the pain you go through to support them, and they accpet it without so much as a thank you. Yes, I've been there.

One way or another, they will (must) learn life's harsh reality. I hear in your words that you want this to happen "not on your watch". But I must warn you, the more you support him, the more he will expect to be supported by you. At some point you must cut the cord (from mother).

I would recommend counciling (for yourself). I hear your soul breaking. You really don't want to go down that path either, therein lies much pain.

Somehow, you must become independent of him. You must regain your life. If you fail to do so, you may well lose your life.



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12 Jun 2013, 12:33 am

GregCav wrote:
It sounds like he is heading for an epic Fail at life.

Which is very sad considering the effort you've put in to avoid just that.

I've done the two jobs to pay for support thing, and I know very well how it destroys the soul. You get to a point where you just can not care any more. The work, the time, the effort, the pain you go through to support them, and they accpet it without so much as a thank you. Yes, I've been there.

One way or another, they will (must) learn life's harsh reality. I hear in your words that you want this to happen "not on your watch". But I must warn you, the more you support him, the more he will expect to be supported by you. At some point you must cut the cord (from mother).

I would recommend counciling (for yourself). I hear your soul breaking. You really don't want to go down that path either, therein lies much pain.

Somehow, you must become independent of him. You must regain your life. If you fail to do so, you may well lose your life.


Then maybe it's time you disown him, and throw him out on the street.



Wibbly
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12 Jun 2013, 1:20 am

Thank you.

I have just been on the phone with the ADD/Aspie clinic in Wellies and she has some last ditch suggestions - including telling him he;s making me wanna feel like suicide with watching him throw himself away.......it's ok....I won;t......but I have had serious thoughts in the past so have to watch it....

Anyway - her son was the same - she actually said to me, "kids like that drive you to drink".....just as I was aobut to pour myself a wine.

Anyway - she wants her team to assess him - she believes he has ADD plus a VERY "different" sort of Aspie/Autism - she thinks he may be Savant. Which means - highly, mindblowingly intelligent - can;t fight their way out of a paper bag - Rainman type - but without the overt Autism behaviour.

And actually - we have my husband's aunt who was a famous author who fits this perfectly.

SO - Clinical Psychologist thru hospital, Paediatric Psychiatrist thru hospital, visit to her team for both boys - and then - after a bit more trying (cos the other side of him is truly beautiful - rescues animals, comforts the sick, loves volunteer work and adored doing meals on wheels....etc) - THEN - once all THIS is done and tried - set him free on his backside.

And I can do that. He's not ready for that yet - if you know what I mean - he never "will" be - bu tthis will be the last ditch stuff that will allow us to know we did it ALL.

HER son was like it. She has advised me to treat him like a liar - ALL the time - being quite blunt - and make him prove that ANYTHING he says is true. Which was right where I am at.

You are all correct. So - thank you. Between her and you - I can somehow get back up for one last round.....before we have to let him go.

THANK you for being frank. xx You are wonderful people to a complete stranger.



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12 Jun 2013, 4:28 am

OK, I am going to ask something just to clarify. Is he your son an aspie or a sociopath? I mean this in a clinical sense, not in a judgmental way, and I only ask because you mentioned the word, sociopath? I would not think he could be both, though I am not a doctor, so maybe he can.

When he lies, does he always lie with a purpose in mind (to get something he wants, or get out of doing things) or does he lie to lie? I ask mainly because being a sociopath is a very different thing than being an aspie, and I would imagine it would have to be handled differently and by different experts. I would want to know specifically what he has, if I were you, to know what route to take.



Wibbly
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12 Jun 2013, 8:05 am

He is Aspie.....who lies for his own, determined purposes. The lack of conscience because the determination is so immense is a huge issue. But we finally have this woman who is helping us find the correct channels to find out and test everything.....her aspie was the same.

I agree with you that we need to be very careful to explore these avenues though, to really make sure. For all our sakes. And at least now we have some govt funded avenues.

Thanks. :)



momsparky
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12 Jun 2013, 8:34 am

Wibbly wrote:
He is Aspie.....who lies for his own, determined purposes. The lack of conscience because the determination is so immense is a huge issue. But we finally have this woman who is helping us find the correct channels to find out and test everything.....her aspie was the same.


Keep in mind: this could be that he's a sociopath (in the medical sense) or it could mean that he's got incredibly severe Theory of Mind problems; in either case a good diagnostician should be able to help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind

In either case, you have a right to set boundaries and protect yourself - I think you can do this without "throwing him out" entirely, but you might want to think about what steps you can take in that direction (meaning, the more he mistreats you, the less supports and freedoms he gets from you; that's not mean, it's good modeling) If he can't be independent, you can start researching alternate supported living arrangements.

Does he have a job, or are you supporting him financially? How does he get around - do you provide a car or access to public transportation? Do you provide all his food and clothing? Do you do all the chores in the house?

I have had some success with my son when we're really struggling to get cooperation, by explaining that if he won't cooperate, I won't either. I then go "on strike" (which for me usually means not making dinner.) I explain that in order for cooperation to work, everybody has to do their part. Keep in mind that my son is a middle schooler, so this may not work for you, but I've found it to be a useful tool.



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12 Jun 2013, 8:40 am

I am curious what happened to the woman from the clinic's son. How did he turn out? Did she tell you? Did it give you hope if she did?

Good luck!



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12 Jun 2013, 11:03 am

Wibbly wrote:
Thank you. I might. At this point - I just want him to be someone else's problem. And that book would cost money. I know it could possibly help - but I also know exactly "why" he is lying......

control.....he's an Aspie that is sociopathic in his desire to control everything and to have everyone else be wrong just so he can feel good. But there is the dichotomy for him that he "knows" it doesn't work - he always gets caught - but he doesn;t care in the end.

He's somehow sure it will work one day and that the whole world will apologise for being so mean.

I have no more unconditional love left for him. I guess that's my Aspie black/white.......but I have worked SO hard for ten years.....and nothing but his overall health has changed - when he can be bothered taking all the allergy and asthma meds......

I just don't want to be a parent anymore. I didn't in the first place - then he was such a joy as a toddler - so quiet, so compliant (with a few exceptions), so loving.....so able to concentrate, so eager to learn and help.....then he turned 7. And we have been living in a circle of thinking we're ok, making progress......then nightmarish realisations that he doesn;t give a flying bat poop.....

And I see his future - lonely, broken relationships.....grabbing, cheating, lying......and I die more inside.....yet I thought I coudln;t anymore.....

I will try considering your book suggestion......I have so much with the other son being dyslexic and genuine ADHD....


Have you considered that Aspies tend to reach out for control because they are confused and overwhelmed? The more confused and overwhelmed, the more they need to conform the world to their wishes. That is the pattern I've seen over and over on this board and with my son.

So it is time to step back and ask one simple question: what are you missing? He needs something that no one is giving him.

And that is going to be extremely difficult because you have your own issues that may well block your ability to get into his head enough to figure it all out. That is OK; we are who we are and we can't beat ourselves up over that.

But it could make a world of difference for your son if, instead of blaming him for that divide which will never be crossed, you acknowledged to him that part of it comes from you. Because, in his eyes. his entire family is probably a divide he can't figure out how to cross.

What happens if you see his reactions as self-defense instead of pathological?

There is no blame in most of these situations, just a mismatch that hurts everyone. Your hurt is palpable in your post, and his is palpable in his actions.

Anyway. Just a thought. Sometimes if we change perspective, our answers become more visible.


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12 Jun 2013, 2:19 pm

You're his mom. You have things he wants - a bed, clothes, food, electronics, etc. All of these things were bought by you (or not him, anyway) and belong to you. So if he doesn't do his schoolwork, his chores, whatever, then he doesn't get stuff. He understands doing things to get what he wants very well, yes? So use it.



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12 Jun 2013, 2:39 pm

Sounds like it's time for some tough love.



Wibbly
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12 Jun 2013, 2:53 pm

momsparky wrote:
Wibbly wrote:
He is Aspie.....who lies for his own, determined purposes. The lack of conscience because the determination is so immense is a huge issue. But we finally have this woman who is helping us find the correct channels to find out and test everything.....her aspie was the same.


Keep in mind: this could be that he's a sociopath (in the medical sense) or it could mean that he's got incredibly severe Theory of Mind problems; in either case a good diagnostician should be able to help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind

In either case, you have a right to set boundaries and protect yourself - I think you can do this without "throwing him out" entirely, but you might want to think about what steps you can take in that direction (meaning, the more he mistreats you, the less supports and freedoms he gets from you; that's not mean, it's good modeling) If he can't be independent, you can start researching alternate supported living arrangements.

Does he have a job, or are you supporting him financially? How does he get around - do you provide a car or access to public transportation? Do you provide all his food and clothing? Do you do all the chores in the house?

I have had some success with my son when we're really struggling to get cooperation, by explaining that if he won't cooperate, I won't either. I then go "on strike" (which for me usually means not making dinner.) I explain that in order for cooperation to work, everybody has to do their part. Keep in mind that my son is a middle schooler, so this may not work for you, but I've found it to be a useful tool.


He cannot have a part time job because of his learning difficulties and needing to get thru them to University as he is really, really bright....and we have done all that since he was 7 years old. We even sold his Game Boy once, as it was the last thing we had left to try with. There are times he is beautiful - other times, as I said, the determination is (I should have said looks) sociopathic. We are not soft parents. I abhor soft parenting with adults running around like lunatics over nothing - this is not a soft parenting issue.

But thank you - we have tough loved this boy to the point of almost handing him over to authorities - but he is just not THAT bad - if you know what I mean. We take no prisoners....he knows that this is the last and we have never said that before - so he knows it. We do not say anything we won;t do. Never have. No point. One loses the war at that point.