Israeli agent Dick Cheney says Snowden traitor, Chinese spy

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Mukherjee80
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17 Jun 2013, 5:02 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:

Well, *you* are the first one to use the word *Zionist* in this thread...


Erm, so?



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17 Jun 2013, 5:06 pm

Mukherjee80 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:

Well, *you* are the first one to use the word *Zionist* in this thread...

Erm, so?

If you want a response, quote me properly. I have no patience for cherry-picking.


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17 Jun 2013, 5:06 pm

Mukherjee80 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
Well, *you* are the first one to use the word *Zionist* in this thread...
Erm, so?

I gotta ask ... is calling someone a "Zionist" an insult, or are there just some people who can not handle the fact that Zionists exist?



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17 Jun 2013, 5:15 pm

The problem is that most people don't know what a 'zionist' is. Typically, the word is either used as a fallacy to discredit people who disagree with you regarding Israel--or it is used as a false-front for antisemitism ("You've got it all wrong; I'm just an anti-zionist--the jews just don't have any right to live in Israel and should be kicked out again").



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17 Jun 2013, 5:22 pm

Okay, then ... according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Zi·on·ism (n): an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel.

By extrapolation, a "Zionist" is "... a person who favors the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and who supports modern Israel".

It makes sense to me.

So why is there so much rancor regarding Zionism and Zionists?



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17 Jun 2013, 5:33 pm

Fnord wrote:
Okay, then ... according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Zi·on·ism (n): an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel.

By extrapolation, a "Zionist" is "... a person who favors the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and who supports modern Israel".

It makes sense to me.

So why is there so much rancor regarding Zionism and Zionists?


There never was a Palestine. There are several degrees of zionism; liberal zionists account for the vast majority of all zionists across the globe. Liberal zionism is also secular.



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17 Jun 2013, 5:34 pm

Anyone who thinks Israel should exist as a Jewish state in any borders is a Zionist. There are left-wing Zionists, right-wing Zionists, centrist Zionists, liberal Zionists, conservative Zionists, socialist Zionists, Christian Zionists, Muslim Zionists, secular Zionists, nationalistic Zionists, not so nationalistic Zionists...



Last edited by Tequila on 17 Jun 2013, 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mukherjee80
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17 Jun 2013, 5:35 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:

Well, *you* are the first one to use the word *Zionist* in this thread...

Erm, so?

If you want a response, quote me properly. I have no patience for cherry-picking.


I did quote you correctly. It was my embedded quote that I removed. I actually did so out of consideration for people who get tired of seeing space taken up by posts that consist of single-sentence responses to large blocks of embedded quotes.

Perhaps you think that if you cannot get me to apologize for using the word "Zionist", you can get me to apologize for something else instead?

Well, I won't. But I can post the full quote block if you would like:

GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
fueledbycoffee wrote:
What exactly is it about Israel that puts them in the center of every global conspiracy? I mean, you don't see people accusing Dick Cheney of being a Tajik agent, or a British agent, or an Argentinian agent. Israel is just a bunch of Jews in the desert. Not exactly the Illuminati, there.


Firstly, the opening post was not positing a global conspiracy. The opening post described two (two!) US officials as agents of another country. That Dick Cheney was a director of JINSA is simply a fact. The hugely oversized influence Zionists have over the policies of the United States is well understood by politically interested people around the world.

Secondly, Israel is certainly not at the centre of every global conspiracy theory I've ever heard anyway.

I see this thread is in the process of veering away from a discussion of the facts raised in the original post towards a series of straw-man posts by propagandists whining about how rotten people always blame the Jews for everything because they're just jealous of their wonderfulness. How typical.

Well, *you* are the first one to use the word *Zionist* in this thread...


Again I ask: so?



Tequila
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17 Jun 2013, 5:38 pm

Kurgan wrote:
There are several degrees of zionism; liberal zionists account for the vast majority of all zionists across the globe. Liberal zionism is also secular.


Zionism in Israel was left-wing and socialist-minded up until the 1970s. Something that anti-Zionists would rather brush under the carpet. Israelis moved away from that lifestyle as it wasn't right for them any more. (Socialists worldwide abandoning them and accusing them of racism probably didn't help.)

Interestingly, in the late 1940s the British Labour Party actually advocated that the Jewish state ethnically cleanse all Arabs from its territory. The nascent Israeli state of the time was horrified by the suggestion.



Mukherjee80
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17 Jun 2013, 5:40 pm

Fnord wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
Well, *you* are the first one to use the word *Zionist* in this thread...
Erm, so?

I gotta ask ... is calling someone a "Zionist" an insult, or are there just some people who can not handle the fact that Zionists exist?


Who are you asking, me or GGPViper? I'm wondering if perhaps GGPViper thinks that calling someone a Zionist is an insult, judging by the fact that he's made a big thing out of the fact that I dared to use the word.

But I cannot tell yet where GGPViper is coming from, because he has not answered my question.



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18 Jun 2013, 6:17 am

Why not just use Israelis or, for someone outside Israel, "pro-Israel"? Most Israelis are Zionists, duh. What's wrong with being a Zionist? It usually means a respectful attitude to Israelis and both Israeli Arabs and 'Palestinians'. (I do love the stories I've read about some of the Israeli Arab communities that do NOT want anything to do with a future 'Palestinian' state.)

Oh, and my comment before about the British Labour Party and Zionism in 1944-1945:

Quote:
'There is surely neither hope nor meaning in a “Jewish National Home” unless we are prepared to let Jews, if they wish, enter this tiny land in such numbers as to become a majority. There was a strong case for this before the war. There is an irresistible case now, after the unspeakable atrocities of the cold and calculated German plot to kill all Jews in Europe. Here, too, in Palestine, surely is a case, on human grounds and to promote a stable settlement for transfers of population. Let the Arabs be encouraged to move out, as the Jews move in. Let them be compensated handsomely for their land, and let their settlement elsewhere be carefully organized and generously financed. The Arabs have many wide territories of their own... Indeed, we should re-examine also the possibility of extending the present Palestinian borders, by agreement with Egypt, Syria, or Transjordan.’ (Documents Relating to the Palestine Problem published by the Jewish Agency for Palestine, London, 1945, p. 81. See also Dr [Hugh] Dalton’s statement on behalf of the Labour Party Executive 1945, on the same issue – Ibid.)

This unexpected pledge caught Dr Weizmann completely by surprise. In his autobiography he tells us that he pleaded with Dr Hugh Dalton, the Labour statesman, saying that there was no need of their proposal, and that the Zionists “never contemplated the removal of the Arabs, and the British Labourites, in their pro-Zionist enthusiasm, went far beyond our intentions.” (Trial and Error, Phila., 1949, vol. 2, p. 436.)


Ouch.



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18 Jun 2013, 9:44 am

Sorry for the belated reply. It was past midnight when I posted last, and I went to bed immediately afterwards.

Mukherjee80 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
fueledbycoffee wrote:
What exactly is it about Israel that puts them in the center of every global conspiracy? I mean, you don't see people accusing Dick Cheney of being a Tajik agent, or a British agent, or an Argentinian agent. Israel is just a bunch of Jews in the desert. Not exactly the Illuminati, there.

Firstly, the opening post was not positing a global conspiracy. The opening post described two (two!) US officials as agents of another country. That Dick Cheney was a director of JINSA is simply a fact. The hugely oversized influence Zionists have over the policies of the United States is well understood by politically interested people around the world.

Secondly, Israel is certainly not at the centre of every global conspiracy theory I've ever heard anyway.

I see this thread is in the process of veering away from a discussion of the facts raised in the original post towards a series of straw-man posts by propagandists whining about how rotten people always blame the Jews for everything because they're just jealous of their wonderfulness. How typical.

Well, *you* are the first one to use the word *Zionist* in this thread...

Again I ask: so?

Fortunately, others poster have now already addressed my point. By definition, contemporary Zionism (and its opposite: Anti-Zionism) deals with the question of the existence of Israel. So you are essentially accusing *others* (as per the quote above) of veering away from the content of the OP while you are turning the thread into a question of whether or not Israel should exist at all...


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Mukherjee80
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23 Jun 2013, 1:41 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Sorry for the belated reply. It was past midnight when I posted last, and I went to bed immediately afterwards.

Mukherjee80 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
fueledbycoffee wrote:
What exactly is it about Israel that puts them in the center of every global conspiracy? I mean, you don't see people accusing Dick Cheney of being a Tajik agent, or a British agent, or an Argentinian agent. Israel is just a bunch of Jews in the desert. Not exactly the Illuminati, there.

Firstly, the opening post was not positing a global conspiracy. The opening post described two (two!) US officials as agents of another country. That Dick Cheney was a director of JINSA is simply a fact. The hugely oversized influence Zionists have over the policies of the United States is well understood by politically interested people around the world.

Secondly, Israel is certainly not at the centre of every global conspiracy theory I've ever heard anyway.

I see this thread is in the process of veering away from a discussion of the facts raised in the original post towards a series of straw-man posts by propagandists whining about how rotten people always blame the Jews for everything because they're just jealous of their wonderfulness. How typical.

Well, *you* are the first one to use the word *Zionist* in this thread...

Again I ask: so?

Fortunately, others poster have now already addressed my point. By definition, contemporary Zionism (and its opposite: Anti-Zionism) deals with the question of the existence of Israel. So you are essentially accusing *others* (as per the quote above) of veering away from the content of the OP while you are turning the thread into a question of whether or not Israel should exist at all...


You are being irrational.

If the original post had instead suggested that Dick Cheney were an agent of Communist Cuba, it would have been perfectly on-topic had someone asserted that Communists were influential in America (regardless of whether or not that assertion was true). Making such an assertion does not mean the thread is being steered towards a discussion about the merits of Communism, because the merits of Communism are irrelevant to the point being made. Meanwhile, anyone who suggested the original poster were blaming Communism for all the world's ills would be setting up a straw man. The logic is the same when you replace "Communism" with "Zionism" and apply it to this thread.

And - make no mistake - Zionism is a political choice, not a moral obligation on every individual on earth. If Arabs one day came to demographically dominate Israel and voted to incorporate Israel into a Greater Arab Palestine, I would have no duty to protest about that on the ground that there "should" be a Jewish state in Palestine. Countries come and go, after all.

It is pretty obvious that if certain influential Americans have an ideological commitment to another country (like American Zionists do), they might sometimes serve that other country's interests at the expense of America's.



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23 Jun 2013, 2:25 pm

Mukherjee80 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Sorry for the belated reply. It was past midnight when I posted last, and I went to bed immediately afterwards.

Mukherjee80 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Mukherjee80 wrote:
fueledbycoffee wrote:
What exactly is it about Israel that puts them in the center of every global conspiracy? I mean, you don't see people accusing Dick Cheney of being a Tajik agent, or a British agent, or an Argentinian agent. Israel is just a bunch of Jews in the desert. Not exactly the Illuminati, there.

Firstly, the opening post was not positing a global conspiracy. The opening post described two (two!) US officials as agents of another country. That Dick Cheney was a director of JINSA is simply a fact. The hugely oversized influence Zionists have over the policies of the United States is well understood by politically interested people around the world.

Secondly, Israel is certainly not at the centre of every global conspiracy theory I've ever heard anyway.

I see this thread is in the process of veering away from a discussion of the facts raised in the original post towards a series of straw-man posts by propagandists whining about how rotten people always blame the Jews for everything because they're just jealous of their wonderfulness. How typical.

Well, *you* are the first one to use the word *Zionist* in this thread...

Again I ask: so?

Fortunately, others poster have now already addressed my point. By definition, contemporary Zionism (and its opposite: Anti-Zionism) deals with the question of the existence of Israel. So you are essentially accusing *others* (as per the quote above) of veering away from the content of the OP while you are turning the thread into a question of whether or not Israel should exist at all...

You are being irrational.

If the original post had instead suggested that Dick Cheney were an agent of Communist Cuba, it would have been perfectly on-topic had someone asserted that Communists were influential in America (regardless of whether or not that assertion was true). Making such an assertion does not mean the thread is being steered towards a discussion about the merits of Communism, because the merits of Communism are irrelevant to the point being made. Meanwhile, anyone who suggested the original poster were blaming Communism for all the world's ills would be setting up a straw man. The logic is the same when you replace "Communism" with "Zionism" and apply it to this thread.

And - make no mistake - Zionism is a political choice, not a moral obligation on every individual on earth. If Arabs one day came to demographically dominate Israel and voted to incorporate Israel into a Greater Arab Palestine, I would have no duty to protest about that on the ground that there "should" be a Jewish state in Palestine. Countries come and go, after all.

It is pretty obvious that if certain influential Americans have an ideological commitment to another country (like American Zionists do), they might sometimes serve that other country's interests at the expense of America's.

You are contradicted by your own post. "Communism" has no reference to any geographical nation or state (in fact, a lot of communists go to *immense* length to make this point). "Zionism", on the other hand, is a specific reference to the question of Israel's existence. Zionists are for, Anti-Zionists are against.

As Tequila pointed out, you could simply have used another label. Even derogatory labels like "Israeli shills", "Strawmen of Israel", "Pawns of their Israeli overlords"" would be less extreme than questioning the very existence of Israel.


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23 Jun 2013, 2:40 pm

The irony being that Dick Cheney's top aide was convicted of lying to investigators in the Plame case where an active CIA agent's identity was leaked to the press. Cheney was still reported to be angry with Bush after he left office because Libby wasn't pardoned.

That said, it does sound like Snowden is guilty of espionage and he probably knows it. Thus the, you know, running away.