Kids 'outing' themselves
Kid's got it all gamed, I'll say that much for him.
The point I'm trying to make is certainly that is what he SEEMS to be saying, but you're assuming the child has the skills to make all the same connections the adult with a wooden leg can make.
I am not saying it is OK to say that children with autism can't be expected to behave. I'm saying that it is a really bad idea to assume that this child or any child with autism in particular is able to "game" anything without a LOT more information about the child in particular. It's a really simplistic view of a very, very complex issue and it often leads to bad choices on the part of caregivers.
I guess, also, it's worth mentioning that there is a difference between "gaming the system" and learning that a particular collection of words gets people to leave you alone. One is a very complex interpersonal social interaction involving knowledge of the other person's state of mind and how to change it, the other is an extremely simplified algorithm of if-this-then-that, and might even be an example of echolalia. I wouldn't call that "gaming the system," because it implies complex knowledge of said system.
Also, one can teach a child to change their behavior, even given the child's statement, without the assumption that the child is being manipulative. I don't see where applying motives, right or wrong, solves any parenting problems at all.
I think I'm kind of with Momsparky on this one. It did seem out of character from the rest of what he was saying. And I don't think he was reading me to think he needed the excuse. His dad was getting on to him to try to get him to stop doing something, which was the not listening to his parents part and the throwing stuff, he was throwing his hat because he was upset that they were leaving. Overall I thought he was handling it pretty well, he looked pretty emotional, and pulled his tone of voice back to almost normal when it started toward hysterical. The situation had all kinds of triggering potential for an autistic kid--new place, new people, after bedtime (so out of routine), excitement over our pets, and difficult travel where several things had gone dramatically wrong.
I think maybe that is why it bugged me so much, because it SOUNDS incredibly bratty, but I wasn't really seeing super brattiness in the rest of what was going on, if that makes sense? It did sound rehearsed or canned, kind of. I don't know if it is something he has heard many times, "Sorry he's autistic." combined with many conversations about making good and bad choices. He is very high functioning, and those of you have the very high functioning, but still socially very impaired kids, know how invisible their problems can be to the general public. Maybe he's been taught to tell people, so that when he does something unusual, people have a framework and it is just is coming out wrong, because it's filtered through his pedantic speaking style and getting combined with other stuff to make a rather unfortunate combo?
I also agree with Momsparky on this. Unless you live with the child, you really have no way of know what his social functioning is like. If I have learned anything, what I have learned is it is extremely presumptuous to make judgments about other people's kids. The boy may be parroting what his parents say around adults, when they get embarrassed. He may be a brat. There is no way of knowing and frankly given that you cannot know, why make assumptions?
There is a danger sometimes when one is super-high functioning, in assuming everyone is that way. They are not. You can always make errors in one direction or another. You will never be a perfect judge, even of your own child; not all the time. There are consequences in expecting too much or expecting too little. We do the best we can. My son has run into so many problems b/c his vocabulary on non-social, especially academic words is very high, and his social/emotional understanding is below 1 percentile. He is constantly misunderstood, so I have a bit of a thin skin on this topic. (bias acknowledged) I can tell what he doesn't understand, b/c I live with him, and he does when there is no advantage and even disadvantage. He is honest b/c he does not understand not to be in certain instances.
That will vary on the family I am sure. Here are some different reasons: (Also not everyone gets a diagnosis that early, and even if you did, how do you explain it to a baby?)
1) You may not be sure of the diagnosis. You may have doubts.
2) You don't want it affecting self-esteem or making your child feel like he/she has limitations he/she may not have.
3) You may not like labels and parents of NTs don't constantly tell their kids they are NT.
There are tons more of course, but basically it amounts to whether the positives outweigh the negatives at a given point in time.
I think maybe that is why it bugged me so much, because it SOUNDS incredibly bratty, but I wasn't really seeing super brattiness in the rest of what was going on, if that makes sense? It did sound rehearsed or canned, kind of. I don't know if it is something he has heard many times, "Sorry he's autistic." combined with many conversations about making good and bad choices. He is very high functioning, and those of you have the very high functioning, but still socially very impaired kids, know how invisible their problems can be to the general public. Maybe he's been taught to tell people, so that when he does something unusual, people have a framework and it is just is coming out wrong, because it's filtered through his pedantic speaking style and getting combined with other stuff to make a rather unfortunate combo?
It's all in the context of the situation, and actions do speak louder than words. I do disagree with not educating kids about their diagnosis. I didn't learn exactly what mine was until my twenties, and that lack of knowledge really hindered me on coping skills I could have learned much earlier.
I think maybe that is why it bugged me so much, because it SOUNDS incredibly bratty, but I wasn't really seeing super brattiness in the rest of what was going on, if that makes sense? It did sound rehearsed or canned, kind of. I don't know if it is something he has heard many times, "Sorry he's autistic." combined with many conversations about making good and bad choices. He is very high functioning, and those of you have the very high functioning, but still socially very impaired kids, know how invisible their problems can be to the general public. Maybe he's been taught to tell people, so that when he does something unusual, people have a framework and it is just is coming out wrong, because it's filtered through his pedantic speaking style and getting combined with other stuff to make a rather unfortunate combo?
I think you are right. The assumption that this kid is being manipulative is THE PROBLEM not the child's actions. As momsparky pointed out, it takes a tremendous amount of social savvy for a child to know how to manipulate other people. By definition, autistic children generally lack the social awareness needed to "game" anyone. That is the most common denominator about autism in various individuals, they have difficulty understanding social norms. I think it is far more likely that he is repeating or paraphrasing comments he has heard his mother and father say. Occam's razor, folks.
I don't think this debate can be solved here, and both sides have a point, although hearing that sentence I was leaning towards intentional manipulation, and not just trouble communicating.
Let me share this: as much as I believe parents should err on the side of understanding, of not assuming behavior is intentional, I ALSO know that kids learn to take advantage of that. My son, whom I do believe is a good kid, has told me outright that in the past he had taken advantage of my attempts to make allowances for him because of his ASD. Not often, but he has, so we KNOW it is possible and it DOES happen.
Parents are in a tough position with things like this, because making the wrong call either way have negative consequences you would rather avoid.
Perhaps the best thing to do in this situation, since it is someone else's child, is let the parents know what the child said and the situation he said it in. Convey the information non-judgmentally while still suggesting they evaluate how much the child does and does not have in the way of control at different times.
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Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).
A boy I knew when I was a kid had these muscle spasms. He would say when he came over to our house 'Sometimes my hand jerks and I drop things, food or even a glass. I don't do it on purpose.' Isn't it possible the child mentioned were doing the same thing? He knows when he gets overwhelmed he behavbes badly and wants to prepare you for the eventuality?
My son is 15 and only twice in his life has he ever used a diagnosis to explain something. Both times he was telling the truth, even though he didn't know how to prevent the behavior. My son has a diagnosis of AS but also holds a diagnosis of ADHD. Once when he was very small he told my dad "I can't help it I take medicine". The second time was about a year ago, I asked him why he did something and he said "because I have freaking ADHD", which interprets to I don't know specifically why I did that, I just did.
IMO and my experience, when those words come out, it's time to have a talk about what might help the situation. Basically "yes autism is quite a challenge but we can still work on ourselves, we can talk about how to make this situation better. AND I can help you with that"
As for telling my child about his diagnosis, yes I have always been honest with him. I also have a daughter who has learning disabilities and I am honest with her too. I think self advocacy is very important and with out the knowledge of what your deficits are you can not self advocate effectively. My children have never used it as a crutch.
I am not so quick to write "behaviors" off as manipulation.
This is a much better way to illustrate what I was trying to say earlier: if you approach it this way, it doesn't matter whether the child is trying to manipulate you or not.
When I was in my teens, I would just let myself have anxiety and let it all out and not try and control it, why? Because I have Asperger's.
I was more confused back then and thought if you have a disability, you have special privileges and you are allowed to do things normal people can't do. As a child, I was in special ed and this one girl was allowed to scream when touched, this boy was allowed to ruin in the classroom with his pants down, this other boy was allowed to show out numbers whenever we would do counting and every time we got to number nine in a number, he would yell "Twenty nine" "Thirty nine" etc. Then online I saw when you're autistic, you're allowed to get your way and life revolved around you. So I thought I should have special privileges too and my mom told me I took it too literal and my therapist told me letting an autistic child get their way is wrong because it doesn't teach them anything. Do things their way and having to do Groundhog Day is wrong.
My mom also found out my school counselor was making me worse and being Asperger's because he was always telling me "Because you have Asperger's" about things I do or problems I have. I don't think he was coaching me to have more symptoms and fake it but my mom said he was treating me like a label and teaching me to be AS and my mom told him I can to stop it.
So to hear about a kid saying his autism is acting up makes it sound like this is what he is doing based on my own experience.
For a while I thought what is a point in having Asperger's if you're not allowed to have it. Sadly this seems common in aspies because I have read posts on here and elsewhere about them saying how they have gotten worse according to their partner or families after finding out they have it, people saying they quit trying or "be themselves more." My mother wouldn't allow me to do this. It would be unacceptable in my family. I think we take it too literal like I did in my teens. I don't know if I should say I was being manipulative or not. I was just confused. The kid could be confused too and it's up to the parents and therapists to teach him.
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Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed.
Daughter: NT, no diagnoses.
That is incredibly insightful, League Girl, thank you for sharing. I'm on another online forum place for chatting, where many of the regulars are on the autism spectrum. Most of them, even though they may have very obvious problems fitting into groups in RL, rarely have problems in the group. Most of them have had to say they were autistic before anyone else knew. But every few months, someone will show up that seems to be trying to live up to the diagnosis. They say things that are really unacceptable, and get mad and remind everyone (because usually the first thing they did when they arrived is announce, I'm autistic!) that they are autistic and therefore didn't know they shouldn't do things like make fun of someone's sexuality. Then group rules are explained in detail, even roleplayed with them sometimes, and they just keep doing it, and always seem surprised when people tell them that being autistic isn't an excuse to behave badly, when the rules have been explained.
The worst one in that other group, once said some particularly horrible things on a third site to a more volatile person (diagnosed AS himself). The guy had called him out on it not too nicely, and the mom actually got online and chewed the offended guy out for telling her son that he was wrong in a social situation, that her son had autism and should never be called on any social bad behavior. Unsurprisingly, the guy still says rude, horrible things and then says, "But I'm autistic!" whenever someone tells him he is being rude.
I've never really had any insight on why someone would continue to behave this way. But what you said makes it a rather logical point of view. I can definitely see how a person could easily receive that message loud and clear, and if they didn't have someone to set them back on the right path like your mom did for you, then I can see how it would be very hard for them to change the pattern on their own.
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