Neurotypicals HIJACKED the Aspergers diagnosis!

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Verdandi
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04 Aug 2013, 8:59 pm

Do people here say they want it to be true? I don't recall seeing much of that.



Phssthpok
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04 Aug 2013, 9:07 pm

Aspendos wrote:
Phssthpok, what's your stake in this? Your WP status is "Have Aspergers - undiagnosed", meaning you're self-diagnosed ... certainly anyone having got a professional diagnosis has more certainty than that. The power of self-suggestion and self-deception leading to self-diagnosis seems potentially a lot stronger than the danger of someone deceiving a trained professional who (ideally) specializes in autism/Asperger's (in adults, in my case).

I'll take the plunge and say that I can't be certain I'm not fooling myself just like none of you can whether you admit it or not. My memories and my interpretation of those memories tell me that I've led a life and had experiences consistent with an aspie. Can I trust those memories? Maybe. Could a shrink figure out whether or not I've bought my own BS? I doubt it.



XFilesGeek
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04 Aug 2013, 9:13 pm

Phssthpok wrote:
What I do know is that many people here often say they want it to be true and they do try pretty hard to convince everyone that they are genuine.


Uummm.....who?

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It also doesn't take a psychology degree to see that whatever thing you come up with to explain why you are the way you are is going to have to satisfy your ego.


You seem to be attributing imaginary mental states to people.


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Phssthpok
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04 Aug 2013, 9:15 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
This "issue" keeps coming up because people with no medical training think they can diagnose, or un-diagnose, an ASD merely by observing superficial behavior.


^^^^^

Exactly this.

I've only seen this as an issue when people decide to start up "more autistic than thou" conversations. Like this one.


This thread seems to boil down to either, "You can't be autistic. You look normal!" or "Anyone who doesn't have the exact same problems as me isn't autistic."

Really, trying to be "more autistic" than someone else has to be one of the dumber competitions I've ever seen people engage in.


That is sort of missing the point again, I didn't call anybody out or try to say that I have a more severe case than anyone else. This is a question of what you can and cannot know about the people you talk to here and what the implications of that are. That's it.



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04 Aug 2013, 9:16 pm

Phssthpok wrote:
Aspendos wrote:
Phssthpok, what's your stake in this? Your WP status is "Have Aspergers - undiagnosed", meaning you're self-diagnosed ... certainly anyone having got a professional diagnosis has more certainty than that. The power of self-suggestion and self-deception leading to self-diagnosis seems potentially a lot stronger than the danger of someone deceiving a trained professional who (ideally) specializes in autism/Asperger's (in adults, in my case).

I'll take the plunge and say that I can't be certain I'm not fooling myself just like none of you can whether you admit it or not. My memories tell me that I've led a life and had experiences consistent with an aspie. Can I trust those memories? Maybe. Could a shrink figure out whether or not I've bought my own BS? I doubt it.


You are quite right actually on this, and it depends on your self-awareness and objectivity.
When you often share your ideas with others to see if you are on the right track, you can attempt to validate the ideas you have created but you will have to be open to suggestion, and accept the things that you sometimes rather do not want to hear, psychiatrists cannot venture into the mind which inevitably means they have to accept the existence of a "grey area".

This is why the variety of quizzes on autism and personality disorders are so extreme tricky, because the results may differ from time to time.

I think there is a extreme lack of psychoanalysis when it comes to diagnostics, and its even more pressing when there is a lack of heteroanamnesis.

-edited for spelling-



Last edited by Jonov on 04 Aug 2013, 9:47 pm, edited 5 times in total.

XFilesGeek
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04 Aug 2013, 9:18 pm

Phssthpok wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
This "issue" keeps coming up because people with no medical training think they can diagnose, or un-diagnose, an ASD merely by observing superficial behavior.


^^^^^

Exactly this.

I've only seen this as an issue when people decide to start up "more autistic than thou" conversations. Like this one.


This thread seems to boil down to either, "You can't be autistic. You look normal!" or "Anyone who doesn't have the exact same problems as me isn't autistic."

Really, trying to be "more autistic" than someone else has to be one of the dumber competitions I've ever seen people engage in.


That is sort of missing the point again, I didn't call anybody out or try to say that I have a more severe case than anyone else. This is a question of what you can and cannot know about the people you talk to here and what the implications of that are. That's it.


I was talking about the entire thread, not just your posts.


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Aspendos
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04 Aug 2013, 9:22 pm

Phssthpok, I would probably agree that there's no objective proof of autism/AS, at least not until brain scanning technologies or genetics become more advanced. The only thing one can say with certainty is that one has got a diagnosis.



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04 Aug 2013, 9:36 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Phssthpok wrote:
What I do know is that many people here often say they want it to be true and they do try pretty hard to convince everyone that they are genuine.


Uummm.....who?

Quote:
It also doesn't take a psychology degree to see that whatever thing you come up with to explain why you are the way you are is going to have to satisfy your ego.


You seem to be attributing imaginary mental states to people.

Verdandi wrote:
Do people here say they want it to be true? I don't recall seeing much of that.

People in this very thread seem to be fairly indignant over having their diagnose questioned by the OP. Why the vitriol? Because it's important to them.

Again it seems self-evidently true that people have egos and they try to protect them, if you consider that to be "attributing mental states to people" than so be it.



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04 Aug 2013, 9:37 pm

There is objective evidence of autism via brain scans and analysis of autistic brains (gathered posthumously). These methods can't yet be used for diagnosis, however, because this evidence is largely statistical.



Aspendos
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04 Aug 2013, 9:54 pm

Verdandi, I meant proof that a particular individual has autism/AS (rather than just imagining it, as has been suggested), not that autism/AS exist as such. Diagnosis is as good as it gets right now.



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04 Aug 2013, 9:57 pm

Jonov wrote:
You are quite right actually on this, and it depends on your self-awareness and objectivity.
When you often share your ideas with others to see if you are on the right track, you can attempt to validate the ideas you have created but you will have to be open to suggestion, and accept the things that you sometimes rather do not want to hear, psychiatrists cannot venture into the mind which inevitably means they have to accept the existence of a "grey area".

This is why the variety of quizzes on autism and personality disorders are so extreme tricky, because the results may differ from time to time.

I think there is a extreme lack of psychoanalysis when it comes to diagnosis, and its even more pressing when there is a lack of heteroanamnesis.

-edited for spelling-


It wouldn't just be the lack of a history but a completely convincing and false one. At this point I have to ask myself would I have an identity crisis if there was convincing evidence that I was not on the spectrum. For me the answer is yes, and I suspect that's true for a lot of other people. I've just given everyone an excellent reason to doubt any assertions I make regarding my experiences with AS. Is this true of other WP members?



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04 Aug 2013, 10:04 pm

Aspendos wrote:
Verdandi, I meant proof that a particular individual has autism/AS (rather than just imagining it, as has been suggested), not that autism/AS exist as such. Diagnosis is as good as it gets right now.


Observations made for diagnosis are objective evidence of being autistic. For example, I have clinical observations by a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a psychiatric RN, two therapists, and my case manager who note several autistic traits that I displayed around them. Only two of them diagnosed me as autistic, however. The others simply made observations.

I think people move the bar a bit much when discussing whether autism diagnosis includes objective observations, but a lot of conditions - including migraines - are diagnosed similarly.



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04 Aug 2013, 10:06 pm

Phssthpok wrote:
People in this very thread seem to be fairly indignant over having their diagnose questioned by the OP. Why the vitriol? Because it's important to them.


Perhaps because people have denied their difficulties in the past and it's a sore point for them. Perhaps because the OP comes across as self-righteous based on assumptions and guesswork. I find it quite annoying when people are insistent upon being factually incorrect.

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Again it seems self-evidently true that people have egos and they try to protect them, if you consider that to be "attributing mental states to people" than so be it.


Actually, I do.



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04 Aug 2013, 10:09 pm

Phssthpok wrote:

It wouldn't just be the lack of a history but a completely convincing and false one. At this point I have to ask myself would I have an identity crisis if there was convincing evidence that I was not on the spectrum. For me the answer is yes, and I suspect that's true for a lot of other people. I've just given everyone an excellent reason to doubt any assertions I make regarding my experiences with AS. Is this true of other WP members?


Indeed, right now you look at yourself (and that counts for me as well) with the suspicion that a lot of things you remember from your past are related to autism, because you have an answer for it.
Basically you have an answer and work backwards to find questions that confirm the answer, rather than your initial questions about your current behavior and personality traits that could be answered with autism, slowly you gather more "evidence" that your suspicions were true, but you have to stay objective and that is extremely hard if not impossible.

Its like Nietzsche says "If you gaze long in to an abyss the abyss also gazes into you", you cannot look into your past with a suspicion and be 100% sure you stayed objective when you have gathered the answers.

I constantly keep asking myself questions, and also question my parents about myself to determine if I do not lose myself into autism, and everything that comes with it, its a journey you cannot simply take by yourself if you want to stay in the role of the observer.



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04 Aug 2013, 10:14 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Phssthpok wrote:
People in this very thread seem to be fairly indignant over having their diagnose questioned by the OP. Why the vitriol? Because it's important to them.


Perhaps because people have denied their difficulties in the past and it's a sore point for them. Perhaps because the OP comes across as self-righteous based on assumptions and guesswork. I find it quite annoying when people are insistent upon being factually incorrect.

Quote:
Again it seems self-evidently true that people have egos and they try to protect them, if you consider that to be "attributing mental states to people" than so be it.


Actually, I do.


Generally I take these things to the point where the person I'm arguing with has to argue with something that's obviously true, like the fact that people protect their egos, and then I declare victory. If I find myself having to say that up is down and black is white I admit defeat and reevaluate my thoughts.



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04 Aug 2013, 10:24 pm

Phssthpok wrote:
Generally I take these things to the point where the person I'm arguing with has to argue with something that's obviously true, like the fact that people protect their egos, and then I declare victory. If I find myself having to say that up is down and black is white I admit defeat and reevaluate my thoughts.


I didn't say up is down or black is white or anything comparable. I pointed out there are more reasons than ego to disagree with the OP. I did not state that ego protection has nothing to do with anything in this thread. I suggested other possibilities, because I think that projecting a single possibility as you did is inaccurate and comes fairly close to ad hominem. Even if they are protecting their egos, it doesn't negate their arguments.