Is self-defeat a common trait among Aspie relationships?

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aspiemike
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29 Sep 2013, 4:10 pm

If you look through the threads here, and sadly I have to admit that I sometimes engage in this behaviour as well, I have noticed something that may seem like a glaring weakness. Some of the things I have heard privately indicate such a trait as well. Hell, I have even been told I sometimes sabotage my own happiness for whatever reason and as a result, many relationships. Some of the things that could support this:

1. Difficulty in understanding emotions.
2. Knowing when to give up and walk away (quit while you're ahead). Relates to irrational decision making,
3. Indecision (don't want to make a choice)
4. Following bad advice, or not listening to advice that would be beneficial for sustaining a relationship which results in;
5. Issues in conflict resolution,
6. This assumption that some of us (including I from time to time) make that girls just don't like us.

Furthermore, how about the anxiety factor?



YesKindofMaybe
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29 Sep 2013, 4:42 pm

Yes, I identity with these things. The anxiety alone seems to be the biggest threat to my own happiness with regard to relationships.



1401b
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29 Sep 2013, 5:36 pm

No matter how much a person may think they want to go skydiving the background idea that they might go splat could lead them to subtly or unconsciously "find" reasons to not call the skydiving company in the first place - let alone all the "opportunities" to quit (or fail) the classes/training and the failure to make the final appointment to actually jump or to go to it. (my car broke down, bad traffic - missed the flight by 5 min)

Now replace the skydiving with "relationship" and suddenly there are myriads of excuses; "wimmin hate me"; "she's not right somehow"; "I'm not rich/sexy/confident/social/NT enough."
Basically, "I quit now! Because I don't wanna go splat someday maybe soon."

If your brain thinks it's too dangerous then no matter how much you think you want to do it, there will always be reasons found to avoid the danger.

One would have to eliminate the concept of the danger to eliminate the self-defeat (self-protection).


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aspiemike
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29 Sep 2013, 5:39 pm

1401b wrote:
No matter how much a person may think they want to go skydiving the background idea that they might go splat could lead them to subtly or unconsciously "find" reasons to not call the skydiving company in the first place - let alone all the "opportunities" to quit (or fail) the classes/training and the failure to make the final appointment to actually jump or to go to it. (my car broke down, bad traffic - missed the flight by 5 min)

Now replace the skydiving with "relationship" and suddenly there are myriads of excuses; "wimmin hate me"; "she's not right somehow"; "I'm not rich/sexy/confident/social/NT enough."
Basically, "I quit now! Because I don't wanna go splat someday maybe soon."

If your brain thinks it's too dangerous then no matter how much you think you want to do it, there will always be reasons found to avoid the danger.

One would have to eliminate the concept of the danger to eliminate the self-defeat (self-protection).


Very well said. Thank you for the response.



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29 Sep 2013, 5:59 pm

aspiemike wrote:
If you look through the threads here, and sadly I have to admit that I sometimes engage in this behaviour as well, I have noticed something that may seem like a glaring weakness. Some of the things I have heard privately indicate such a trait as well. Hell, I have even been told I sometimes sabotage my own happiness for whatever reason and as a result, many relationships. Some of the things that could support this:
1. Difficulty in understanding emotions.

hers or yours? or both?
aspiemike wrote:
2. Knowing when to give up and walk away (quit while you're ahead). Relates to irrational decision making,

that can be tough. how much of a catch is she? how much competition do you have for her? how much is all that worth to you?
aspiemike wrote:
3. Indecision (don't want to make a choice)

not making a choice IS making a choice, that of default.
aspiemike wrote:
4. Following bad advice, or not listening to advice that would be beneficial for sustaining a relationship which results in;

it's a minefield out there. took me 5 decades to learn that following the golden rule is never a bad thing.
aspiemike wrote:
5. Issues in conflict resolution,

how do you mean? how to handle spats between you and her? ogden nash tartly observed, "To keep your marriage brimming, With love in the loving cup, Whenever you're wrong, admit it; Whenever you're right, shut up."
aspiemike wrote:
6. This assumption that some of us (including I from time to time) make that girls just don't like us.

I've had several decades' worth of girls not liking me for various reasons so I know I was not imagining it by dint of the results [enforced protracted solitude].

aspiemike wrote:
Furthermore, how about the anxiety factor?

one is anxious around one who is perceived to be in a position over one. when you remember that nobody is more than merely mortal human, the anxiety should go away. just some jejune thoughts on my part.



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29 Sep 2013, 6:01 pm

1 and 3 definitely apply to me, but the rest I'm pretty okay with, and conflict resolution is something I consider my specialty (i plan on being a counsellor).



aspiemike
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29 Sep 2013, 7:11 pm

auntblabby wrote:
hers or yours? or both?

that can be tough. how much of a catch is she? how much competition do you have for her? how much is all that worth to you?

not making a choice IS making a choice, that of default.

it's a minefield out there. took me 5 decades to learn that following the golden rule is never a bad thing.

how do you mean? how to handle spats between you and her? ogden nash tartly observed, "To keep your marriage brimming, With love in the loving cup, Whenever you're wrong, admit it; Whenever you're right, shut up."

I've had several decades' worth of girls not liking me for various reasons so I know I was not imagining it by dint of the results [enforced protracted solitude].


1. It can be either or, maybe even both. Depends on the mood and who is being practical, and who is being emotional.
2. Depends on the amount of attention she likes. I have learned that people who seek attention will learn nothing about how they treat others while they get the attention they desire. If I have to constantly fight the other person's battles for them, it isn't worth it.
3. Expecting others to make a choice for you will likely result in something undesirable. I have had to make the choice for one person before. She didn't like the choice I made (she couldn't decide between me and an ex. I walked away and she hated me for it. My rationality behind it: if this is a problem now, it definitely will be down the road as well.)
4. A lot of advice given is sometimes given out of that persons self interest. We also fail to remember that the only side of the story that person is likely hearing is yours as well. Talk with the person you're having a problem with first.
5. The bad advice often leads to poor conflict resolution. You may have just assumed that someone else was right over the person you had a problem with. How the hell does that person know what your partner is thinking?
6. Assume the girl is leaving you for reasons such as: needs getting met elsewhere. Usually the single biggest reason they leave (no cheating that I am aware of, just suspected. but the promise of having needs met elsewhere are too hard to ignore for most people). It just so happens that a few of them leave for a person who has more money, is NT, displays better social skills, seemingly displaying grand sense of self confidence... etc.

aspiemike wrote:
Furthermore, how about the anxiety factor?

Quote:
one is anxious around one who is perceived to be in a position over one. when you remember that nobody is more than merely mortal human, the anxiety should go away. just some jejune thoughts on my part.


If you allow someone to control you, yes, anxiety will likely shoot up. You won't know what to say or do to that person to make them happy. Usually best to walk away.



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29 Sep 2013, 8:49 pm

aspiemike wrote:
If you look through the threads here, and sadly I have to admit that I sometimes engage in this behaviour as well, I have noticed something that may seem like a glaring weakness. Some of the things I have heard privately indicate such a trait as well. Hell, I have even been told I sometimes sabotage my own happiness for whatever reason and as a result, many relationships. Some of the things that could support this:

1. Difficulty in understanding emotions.
2. Knowing when to give up and walk away (quit while you're ahead). Relates to irrational decision making,
3. Indecision (don't want to make a choice)
4. Following bad advice, or not listening to advice that would be beneficial for sustaining a relationship which results in;
5. Issues in conflict resolution,
6. This assumption that some of us (including I from time to time) make that girls just don't like us.

Furthermore, how about the anxiety factor?


I tend to self sabotage, or attempt to, right before big moments. I know I do it. It actually makes it harder, because in some cases it's hard to tell if I am self sabotaging because I am simply freaking out (as I tend to do if there are strong emotions or taking a very major step forward) or if it's my gut telling me something is wrong and acting up because it's not a good decision. Twice I have ignored it and tried to work through it because I thought it was the former, when it ended up being the latter. Naturally those didn't end well.

On one hand you can ruin something good because of your attitude. On the other, you can end up in an unhealthily or abusive relationship.


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LeLetch
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29 Sep 2013, 11:01 pm

Logically, you're screwed. It makes perfect sense, and your argument and theory is rock solid, and points in that direction.

Stop thinking logically. Relationships aren't like that. In fact, why do you want a relationship at all? You must 'just want one'.

Its fine. Thats justification enough. Its an emotional justification.

I saw some studies that point to us having an enlarged part of the brain responsible for fear. That might be a thing. We try to protect our weak emotions by taking countermeasures ahead of time... before a situation arises that requires a snap decision in the heat of an emotional moment.

How do you protect yourself? You basically dont. Thats the difference between a friendship and a relationship. You can really damage each other. So the question remains: Do you want a relationship? If yes? Thats a very emotional idea. Not very logical. Perhaps being more emotional is the answer, even if you're awful at it.


So how to stop yourself from overthinking? Cheese. Mmmm i like cheese. Go blue jays! Yeehah. Easy.
-LeLetch


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30 Sep 2013, 12:42 am

How to stop overthinking: __________

There, i stopped.


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Codyrules37
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30 Sep 2013, 9:15 am

yes



ExceladonCity
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30 Sep 2013, 4:39 pm

LeLetch wrote:
Logically, you're screwed. It makes perfect sense, and your argument and theory is rock solid, and points in that direction.

Stop thinking logically. Relationships aren't like that. In fact, why do you want a relationship at all? You must 'just want one'.

Its fine. Thats justification enough. Its an emotional justification.

I saw some studies that point to us having an enlarged part of the brain responsible for fear. That might be a thing. We try to protect our weak emotions by taking countermeasures ahead of time... before a situation arises that requires a snap decision in the heat of an emotional moment.

How do you protect yourself? You basically dont. Thats the difference between a friendship and a relationship. You can really damage each other. So the question remains: Do you want a relationship? If yes? Thats a very emotional idea. Not very logical. Perhaps being more emotional is the answer, even if you're awful at it.


So how to stop yourself from overthinking? Cheese. Mmmm i like cheese. Go blue jays! Yeehah. Easy.
-LeLetch


Logic is what keeps us alive. Especially those of us that can't handle rejection of that magnitude. It's not easy to just cast logic into the wind and go for it. The lingering thought of "What if?" still exists and will inevitably resurface.



loner1984
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01 Oct 2013, 1:29 pm

LeLetch wrote:
Logically, you're screwed. It makes perfect sense, and your argument and theory is rock solid, and points in that direction.

Stop thinking logically. Relationships aren't like that. In fact, why do you want a relationship at all? You must 'just want one'.

Its fine. Thats justification enough. Its an emotional justification.

I saw some studies that point to us having an enlarged part of the brain responsible for fear. That might be a thing. We try to protect our weak emotions by taking countermeasures ahead of time... before a situation arises that requires a snap decision in the heat of an emotional moment.

How do you protect yourself? You basically dont. Thats the difference between a friendship and a relationship. You can really damage each other. So the question remains: Do you want a relationship? If yes? Thats a very emotional idea. Not very logical. Perhaps being more emotional is the answer, even if you're awful at it.


So how to stop yourself from overthinking? Cheese. Mmmm i like cheese. Go blue jays! Yeehah. Easy.
-LeLetch


I can definitely see the point here, but its pretty hard.

Just here yesterday, i appearently had an old dating profile ive forgotten about, got email that someone had send a letter.

Now suddenly there is this girl that wants to talk and meet me it seems like. and yet my logics says, that something is going on here. When something sounds to good to be true it is. There is this girl that seems like a mirror image of me and looking way to good for someone as average as me.

Logic is a b***h :S



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01 Oct 2013, 2:28 pm

loner1984 wrote:
LeLetch wrote:
Logically, you're screwed. It makes perfect sense, and your argument and theory is rock solid, and points in that direction.

Stop thinking logically. Relationships aren't like that. In fact, why do you want a relationship at all? You must 'just want one'.

Its fine. Thats justification enough. Its an emotional justification.

I saw some studies that point to us having an enlarged part of the brain responsible for fear. That might be a thing. We try to protect our weak emotions by taking countermeasures ahead of time... before a situation arises that requires a snap decision in the heat of an emotional moment.

How do you protect yourself? You basically dont. Thats the difference between a friendship and a relationship. You can really damage each other. So the question remains: Do you want a relationship? If yes? Thats a very emotional idea. Not very logical. Perhaps being more emotional is the answer, even if you're awful at it.


So how to stop yourself from overthinking? Cheese. Mmmm i like cheese. Go blue jays! Yeehah. Easy.
-LeLetch


I can definitely see the point here, but its pretty hard.

Just here yesterday, i appearently had an old dating profile ive forgotten about, got email that someone had send a letter.

Now suddenly there is this girl that wants to talk and meet me it seems like. and yet my logics says, that something is going on here. When something sounds to good to be true it is. There is this girl that seems like a mirror image of me and looking way to good for someone as average as me.

Logic is a b***h :S


Step One: Is there something wrong with her? Yes.
Step Two: There's something wrong with everyone. As beacons of logic and order, it's easy for us to sense disorder sometimes. So meh.
Step three: She's probably not right for you. Statistically, the majority of people you date aren't right for you. So... meh.
Step four: People get into relationships to have fun. Or get married, supposedly, and who would want to do that unless it was fun? If it looks like you want to do it, do it.
Step five: Its easier to find problems than solutions. I find, anyway. It's easier to see the negatives about a person, maybe moreso for an aspie, due to anxiety. Your perspective might be slanted.

-LeLetch

P.S. Pick-up line of the day: "I'm deeply attracted to your personality. Unfortunately, i can't f*** your personality, so can i f*** you instead?"


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It clicked one day. I have empathy now. It has downsides i didn't expect. It's going somewhat poorly, since people tend to suck at new things. That's how you know it's true.


LeLetch
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01 Oct 2013, 2:45 pm

ExceladonCity wrote:
Logic is what keeps us alive. Especially those of us that can't handle rejection of that magnitude. It's not easy to just cast logic into the wind and go for it. The lingering thought of "What if?" still exists and will inevitably resurface.

Logic keeps you alive? I dunno, it seems to be not doing so hot all out on its own when aspies interact with the world. And turning your brain off IS easy. Bblllaaaaaaa see? I just chant 'lets go bluejays lets go' when nessisary. Logically, its especially stupid to yell at your television screen and expect to be heard, yet perfectly sane and accomplished businessmen still do so on a regular basis.

Sometimes i think we're afraid we'll end up losing our sanity or something. Let it be known, yes, you can become delusional, but you'll never be illogical. Lolz. Illogical aspie? Who ISN'T delusional? No way. As for handling high level rejection. Well, this is where the above comes into play. Just, whatever. I think we suck every statement in and try to rationalize its cause. If a girl rejects you, well, meh. I don't care. I mean i do... but... ugh. It gets worse for us i think, since we can pick out potential partners... ones that pass the aspie test. And the aspie test is rigorous, since we overthink. As such, rejection is more likely to hit home. Have less faith in your testing system. If girl 'A' was right for you, i assume she'd say yes, lolz. Just admit you don't understand people, and you'll get farther. Its kinda strange we get hung up on rejection, as if we can somehow figure out why social things happened as they did. No we can't we're aspie, lolz. Being aspie and feeling rejection is a contradiction, technically... i mean... how do you know its not your shoes? You really don't, lolz. I know i don't. There's too many variables. You'll go nuts trying to figure them out, as i think many aspies do.


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Formerly I 80% N 85% T 80% P 15%, INTP, philosopher. Now E 60% N 65% F 90% P 15%, ENFP, ray of sunshine, unless i'm moody.
It clicked one day. I have empathy now. It has downsides i didn't expect. It's going somewhat poorly, since people tend to suck at new things. That's how you know it's true.


LeLetch
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01 Oct 2013, 2:58 pm

The scientific method is slow and unwieldy. That's why you hear studies like: 'Women are more attracted to millionaires than men who are broke.' Its like... holy fudge, they're just figuring this out now?

Applying logic to everything is just... slow, and painful. We're going to do it the vast majority of the time, but doing it slightly less within a relationship context might be wise.

Its simple really. We use too much logic, and not enough social skills. We probably don't do so hot in the real world compared to average... or some of us make it big in a specialized field, while others fail miserably. Answers aren't the answer to everything. Fact! Lolz. Fact. Saying fact at the end is so ironic. Lol.

-Letch