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conundrum
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01 Oct 2013, 5:34 pm

CuriousMom123 wrote:
In the video about the advertisement with the fried chicken, obviously it wasn't intended to be racist and context is everything. But consider this... That ad was meant for Australia. Most savvy advertising agencies would NOT air that in the USA right now. Why? Because if a black person sees fried chicken being passed out to a bunch of black people on TV, it's going to be an upsetting image. The advertiser isn't going to say, "Well, we'll air it anyway because the intent isn't racism." They're going to say, "African Americans would be upset seeing a racial stereotype, regardless of context." Part of that is not wanting to lose customers, but part of it is not wanting to do something that will make another person feel bad.


Very true. It could be re-made for the U.S. by having everyone be of the same race--just a fan of one team (whatever the sport) sitting in the other team's section by mistake. :)

No, it's not about intent. I get that. It's about "whatever upsets a person, upsets them." That's it. Mistakes can be made, because we can't read each other's minds. It's not Aspie/NT, or whatever--all human beings make these errors.


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CuriousMom123
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01 Oct 2013, 6:21 pm

conundrum wrote:
No, it's not about intent. I get that. It's about "whatever upsets a person, upsets them." That's it. Mistakes can be made, because we can't read each other's minds. It's not Aspie/NT, or whatever--all human beings make these errors.


YES!! !! !! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I've been yelled at for saying "insensitive" things, too, not realizing that it would be hurtful. My intent wasn't bad. It just happens. I'm guessing that it happens a lot more for aspies because of aspie traits, but the misunderstanding itself is still just a human thing.

I knew a woman who had lost a lot of weight and was wearing some really trendy clothes that she didn't look like somebody's mom anymore - she looked like a hot young teenager. I meant it as a compliment, because a lot of moms (myself included) gain weight after childbirth and sometimes look frumpy in our "mom clothes." She was really upset, because being a mom was the most important thing in the world to her. She valued "looking like a mom." Go figure. She and I are both NT, and it surprised me that a compliment could be taken so badly.

Coincidentally, her husband was so mad at me for upsetting her, that he got really pissed off at me. (He's kind of a hot-head).

The intent only matters when it's time to make amends. I can assure her that I didn't mean it as an offense, I can clarify what I was thinking, and I can *ALSO* tell her that I'm sorry I upset her. She might still feel upset, but by then she shouldn't be angry with me.

It's not right for me to be angry with her for being upset, but I do have a right to be angry that the husband was a jerk to me about it.

I am thinking that maybe OP shouldn't be asking, "Why are people so easily offended" but rather, "Why are people so impatient about misunderstandings?"

People get offended because people are people. We have feelings, and different things upset different people.

But why are some people so impatient about misunderstandings? Because the impatient people are jerks. LOL. Well... or they don't have the depth of knowledge to understand why misunderstandings happen.

I think it's important to notice the difference between an emotional NT who is upset, and ANY kind of person who is an impatient jerk about a misunderstanding (because aspies can be impatient & stubborn about misunderstandings, too). Sorry, but all the "idiot NT logic" talk has made me a bit defensive.



SheldonGC
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01 Oct 2013, 6:30 pm

I have noticed times in the past where it seems like people hold me to an impossibly high standard for social conversations, that they don't even hold other people to, as though they are trying to find an excuse to hate me, and they can't find one, so they're setting me up to fail with their expectations. It was like I couldn't do anything right to please people.

Maybe I was being paranoid, or maybe that was my own frustrations about dealing with people. Then again, it could be that I quit caring what people thought of me..... lol



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01 Oct 2013, 6:47 pm

SheldonGC wrote:
I have noticed times in the past where it seems like people hold me to an impossibly high standard for social conversations, that they don't even hold other people to, as though they are trying to find an excuse to hate me, and they can't find one, so they're setting me up to fail with their expectations. It was like I couldn't do anything right to please people.


I think these biases absolutely do happen, and absolutely are a problem.

That's one of the reasons why I asked the OP if she'd had a history of misunderstandings. I had said, "it's possible that you may have brushed things off in the past, so they were over-sensitive."

Honestly, I think the only way to overcome this is when someone has an emotional reaction, to be sure not to try to brush it off. The "brush-off" can hurt ten times more than the original issue hurt, and then it leads to these biases. I can see how this would be a problem for an aspie person, though. They might feel like they are just perpetually explaining themselves and apologizing. I can see how that would be exhausting and they might get frustrated and wish that people would just give them the benefit of the doubt!



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01 Oct 2013, 6:49 pm

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Neurotypicals, can you please explain to me why and how on earth NTs can become so easily offended and riled up by things? It totally boggles my mind, and I don't want to make that mistake once I get on the wards and mess up big time.


Because calling someone fat, ugly, or stupid hurts. Plain and simple! It's like you are pointing out the obvious, like they don't already know. If someone is overweight or not attractive, they probably already know that. People get offended when other people draw attention to the things they are already self conscious about. Calling someone an idiot is typically used to belittle someone, and is a common insult. I don't know a soul who likes being called an idiot. I do agree that some people need to lighten up a bit about some things if it is meant as a joke, and not make a big deal out of such.



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02 Oct 2013, 7:40 am

SheldonGC wrote:
I have noticed times in the past where it seems like people hold me to an impossibly high standard for social conversations, that they don't even hold other people to, as though they are trying to find an excuse to hate me, and they can't find one, so they're setting me up to fail with their expectations. It was like I couldn't do anything right to please people.

Maybe I was being paranoid, or maybe that was my own frustrations about dealing with people. Then again, it could be that I quit caring what people thought of me..... lol


I don't think you're paranoid. I get this exact thing too. I think it's because certain tiny things like not making eye contact and not picking up social cues can make NTs feel extremely uncomfortable around you. However, they know it's not a good enough excuse to avoid being around you or exclude you, because that would appear really callous and judgmental, so they try their best to find ways they could avoid the discomfort of being around you without being looked down upon by other NTs as mean/intolerant. This means trying to "justify" their avoidance/distaste for you in a socially acceptable way to other NTs.

Shikari wrote:
Quote:
Neurotypicals, can you please explain to me why and how on earth NTs can become so easily offended and riled up by things? It totally boggles my mind, and I don't want to make that mistake once I get on the wards and mess up big time.


Because calling someone fat, ugly, or stupid hurts. Plain and simple! It's like you are pointing out the obvious, like they don't already know. If someone is overweight or not attractive, they probably already know that. People get offended when other people draw attention to the things they are already self conscious about. Calling someone an idiot is typically used to belittle someone, and is a common insult. I don't know a soul who likes being called an idiot. I do agree that some people need to lighten up a bit about some things if it is meant as a joke, and not make a big deal out of such.


I would never call someone fat, ugly, etc. to their face. Like I said, I follow the golden rule, and I wouldn't want anyone who is not my best friend, family, or fiancé saying those things to me. Even so, I know that NTs are more sensitive about certain things and definitely take heed to that.

As for the "idiot logic" comment, I don't feel I insulted anyone in particular, just the logic itself. Nor did I insult all NTs, I just insulted a logical process that is associated with that group (by pointing out an objective hypocrisy). It's like saying "I think communist is a idiotic ideology". It's a bit harsh, yes, and might make people feel uncomfortable, but I definitely don't think it would be offended unless it was at a communist in a rude tone right after he gave a talk on communism (that's rubbing it in and insulting his work in a completely untactful way).



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02 Oct 2013, 9:53 am

Quote:
As for the "idiot logic" comment, I don't feel I insulted anyone in particular, just the logic itself. Nor did I insult all NTs, I just insulted a logical process that is associated with that group (by pointing out an objective hypocrisy). It's like saying "I think communist is a idiotic ideology". It's a bit harsh, yes, and might make people feel uncomfortable, but I definitely don't think it would be offended unless it was at a communist in a rude tone right after he gave a talk on communism (that's rubbing it in and insulting his work in a completely untactful way).


I think the whole difference between making people uncomfortable and offended might be not as large as you'd imagine. I can't really back that up with anything but my own feelings, though, so a critique of this comment would be appreciated.

I can also say that insulting a process associated with a group can also be interpreted as insulting that group, spread stigma, etc, and can definitely be offensive. So saying NTs have idiot skewed logic could be interpreted by many NTs as being offensive. Part of that, however, was the way you said it. If you said "A trait associated with many NTs is discussing another person's faults without the person around" I don't think the offense would be as likely, because you're (a) not using inflammatory words and (b) not generalizing as much (implying that it's many of them instead of all). Generalizing about groups in general when saying anything negative seems to be rather dangerous, and I would advise against it.

No offense, etc is intended by this post, btw, just in case anyone takes it that way - I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion/understanding of this issue.


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02 Oct 2013, 11:11 am

aspieMD wrote:
I'm probably the least easily offended person. Someone could tell me I'm fat and ugly and stupid and I wouldn't bat an eye.


aspieMD wrote:
I would never call someone fat, ugly, etc. to their face. Like I said, I follow the golden rule, and I wouldn't want anyone who is not my best friend, family, or fiancé saying those things to me.


Alright, I'm done here now. I did my mighty best to give the benefit of the doubt that the disagreements in this thread were due to aspie factors and not just someone being intentionally argumentative, but I was foolish to put so much effort into this. You're not being honest with yourself, or with others on this site.

There are some people (both NT and AS) who don't use disagreements as an opportunity to find mutual understanding. They use arguments like soldiers - they say what is necessary in order to win the argument. An argument should be used to convey truth, and to encourage truth in return.

You're not looking for an honest answer for your question -- you were looking for people to back you up and agree with you that you're not a bad person and the only reason anyone is upset with you is because they are idiots.

The racist chicken heart joke is not black-and-white. It's going to be funny to some and offensive to others, and NONE Of those people are idiots for either reaction.

If there's a misunderstanding, it doesn't mean that you are a horrible, terrible person. I realize that if you are constantly misunderstood, it can be very upsetting and you might begin to feel that you're being unfairly judged and unfairly treated. It sucks to feel like you're constantly being picked on for every little thing, even when you didn't mean it. I can relate to that. I had a lousy childhood and nobody was ever on my side or gave me the benefit of the doubt. It's a lonely place to be, and I have great empathy for you... and I also get how it's very soothing to try to rally the troops so that you can feel better about the situation, and what you probably need is a few good friends to say, "YEAH, those guys are IDIOTS!"

Instead of asking...

aspieMD wrote:
Neurotypicals, can you please explain to me why and how on earth NTs can become so easily offended and riled up by things?


(which was a disingenuous question, because you've rejected the honest answers you were given)

You probably should have said either, "Fellow aspies, doesn't this kind of thing frustrate you too?" or if you were really looking for responses from NTs, perhaps you should have been more honest about what you were really hoping to accomplish and said, "Neurotypicals, can you please explain to me why you have 'idiot logic' and then I will tell you exactly why you are wrong."

Forgive me for having taken the question as sincere and genuine. Perhaps I've spent too much time talking to the MANY genuine, intelligent, kind-hearted aspies on this site and have come to expect that when something is said, that it is truth.

This is not an aspie-related misunderstanding.... You're being defensive and argumentative - not because of aspergers, but because you are hurt and defensive. I'm not going to take part in your merry-go-round. I'm sorry you're hurting. I'm sorry you get hurt a lot because of misunderstandings. Therapy can be very helpful for insecurities that come from that kind of thing.



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02 Oct 2013, 4:25 pm

Don't ask me... I feel the same way. People are very easily offended.



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02 Oct 2013, 4:58 pm

Sometimes I think people choose to get offended and I don't understand. No one likes to get offended but when I see someone getting offended for no reason, it looks like to me they chose to be just to look for trouble or something. Like some people will go online and get offended by something just to have an excuse to be a bully and troll. That was very common behavior at Babycenter when I always went there.

Also I think some people are just too darn sensitive they take anything the wrong way and get offended. Also insecurity will do it. Also a problem at Babycenter.

Also put in mind when you're pregnant, you're going to be more sensitive so you may be easily offended by things but I think some of them use it as an excuse to be a jerk and to be mean.


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02 Oct 2013, 6:11 pm

CuriousMom123 wrote:
aspieMD wrote:
I'm probably the least easily offended person. Someone could tell me I'm fat and ugly and stupid and I wouldn't bat an eye.


aspieMD wrote:
I would never call someone fat, ugly, etc. to their face. Like I said, I follow the golden rule, and I wouldn't want anyone who is not my best friend, family, or fiancé saying those things to me.


Alright, I'm done here now. I did my mighty best to give the benefit of the doubt that the disagreements in this thread were due to aspie factors and not just someone being intentionally argumentative, but I was foolish to put so much effort into this. You're not being honest with yourself, or with others on this site.

There are some people (both NT and AS) who don't use disagreements as an opportunity to find mutual understanding. They use arguments like soldiers - they say what is necessary in order to win the argument. An argument should be used to convey truth, and to encourage truth in return.

You're not looking for an honest answer for your question -- you were looking for people to back you up and agree with you that you're not a bad person and the only reason anyone is upset with you is because they are idiots.

The racist chicken heart joke is not black-and-white. It's going to be funny to some and offensive to others, and NONE Of those people are idiots for either reaction.

If there's a misunderstanding, it doesn't mean that you are a horrible, terrible person. I realize that if you are constantly misunderstood, it can be very upsetting and you might begin to feel that you're being unfairly judged and unfairly treated. It sucks to feel like you're constantly being picked on for every little thing, even when you didn't mean it. I can relate to that. I had a lousy childhood and nobody was ever on my side or gave me the benefit of the doubt. It's a lonely place to be, and I have great empathy for you... and I also get how it's very soothing to try to rally the troops so that you can feel better about the situation, and what you probably need is a few good friends to say, "YEAH, those guys are IDIOTS!"

Instead of asking...

aspieMD wrote:
Neurotypicals, can you please explain to me why and how on earth NTs can become so easily offended and riled up by things?


(which was a disingenuous question, because you've rejected the honest answers you were given)

You probably should have said either, "Fellow aspies, doesn't this kind of thing frustrate you too?" or if you were really looking for responses from NTs, perhaps you should have been more honest about what you were really hoping to accomplish and said, "Neurotypicals, can you please explain to me why you have 'idiot logic' and then I will tell you exactly why you are wrong."

Forgive me for having taken the question as sincere and genuine. Perhaps I've spent too much time talking to the MANY genuine, intelligent, kind-hearted aspies on this site and have come to expect that when something is said, that it is truth.

This is not an aspie-related misunderstanding.... You're being defensive and argumentative - not because of aspergers, but because you are hurt and defensive. I'm not going to take part in your merry-go-round. I'm sorry you're hurting. I'm sorry you get hurt a lot because of misunderstandings. Therapy can be very helpful for insecurities that come from that kind of thing.


You could consider that you might be as guilty of misunderstanding the meaning of what others are saying as you assert that they are. Some times some people see it as ok to assert a joint failing in all people on the spectrum, but then take offence when the same is done of NTs. Both groups are widely varying by individual, so don't be surprised if people point that (in previous sentence) out. It can be possible to avert some offence taken sometimes by thinking about what the person means before reacting. This is part of how people develop patience.



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02 Oct 2013, 10:51 pm

CuriousMom123 wrote:
aspieMD wrote:
I'm probably the least easily offended person. Someone could tell me I'm fat and ugly and stupid and I wouldn't bat an eye.


aspieMD wrote:
I would never call someone fat, ugly, etc. to their face. Like I said, I follow the golden rule, and I wouldn't want anyone who is not my best friend, family, or fiancé saying those things to me.


Alright, I'm done here now. I did my mighty best to give the benefit of the doubt that the disagreements in this thread were due to aspie factors and not just someone being intentionally argumentative, but I was foolish to put so much effort into this. You're not being honest with yourself, or with others on this site.

There are some people (both NT and AS) who don't use disagreements as an opportunity to find mutual understanding. They use arguments like soldiers - they say what is necessary in order to win the argument. An argument should be used to convey truth, and to encourage truth in return.

You're not looking for an honest answer for your question -- you were looking for people to back you up and agree with you that you're not a bad person and the only reason anyone is upset with you is because they are idiots.

The racist chicken heart joke is not black-and-white. It's going to be funny to some and offensive to others, and NONE Of those people are idiots for either reaction.

If there's a misunderstanding, it doesn't mean that you are a horrible, terrible person. I realize that if you are constantly misunderstood, it can be very upsetting and you might begin to feel that you're being unfairly judged and unfairly treated. It sucks to feel like you're constantly being picked on for every little thing, even when you didn't mean it. I can relate to that. I had a lousy childhood and nobody was ever on my side or gave me the benefit of the doubt. It's a lonely place to be, and I have great empathy for you... and I also get how it's very soothing to try to rally the troops so that you can feel better about the situation, and what you probably need is a few good friends to say, "YEAH, those guys are IDIOTS!"

Instead of asking...

aspieMD wrote:
Neurotypicals, can you please explain to me why and how on earth NTs can become so easily offended and riled up by things?


(which was a disingenuous question, because you've rejected the honest answers you were given)

You probably should have said either, "Fellow aspies, doesn't this kind of thing frustrate you too?" or if you were really looking for responses from NTs, perhaps you should have been more honest about what you were really hoping to accomplish and said, "Neurotypicals, can you please explain to me why you have 'idiot logic' and then I will tell you exactly why you are wrong."

Forgive me for having taken the question as sincere and genuine. Perhaps I've spent too much time talking to the MANY genuine, intelligent, kind-hearted aspies on this site and have come to expect that when something is said, that it is truth.

This is not an aspie-related misunderstanding.... You're being defensive and argumentative - not because of aspergers, but because you are hurt and defensive. I'm not going to take part in your merry-go-round. I'm sorry you're hurting. I'm sorry you get hurt a lot because of misunderstandings. Therapy can be very helpful for insecurities that come from that kind of thing.


I wouldn't LIKE it if people called me fat/ugly/etc., I just wouldn't get offended, so I don't think the two statements are contradictory.

You're right that I shouldn't have used the term "idiot logic" as that is indeed inflammatory. Would it be less offensive if I said "idiot logic" instead of "idiot NT logic", because it's not insulting a particular group?

I can understand why the friend would be upset about the seeming invalidation, but I don't understand why the Asian joke would offend people. It's not racist or anything. It's just stating something that is true about a culture. I never implied that eating chicken hearts is uncivilized or whatnot.



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02 Oct 2013, 11:44 pm

no it's the science nerd and smart trope. not the chicken heart thing, that can be interpreted that way. kinda like joking about black people being good at sports. i understand that you're in med school and stuff but it's like, a trope that does have some issues especially with regards to the affirmative action debate. again i'm not being offended but this is how it can be viewed as problematic.

it is definitely, challenging to see how the model minority stereotype is problematic for many people, actually many asians don't see the problem either, so like i would not find your joke offensive in intent... but this is why many people who have studied ethnic studies and are active in affirmative action politics may find it so. sry if i sound angry/obsessed, no intention to be.

http://diverseeducation.com/article/52866/


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03 Oct 2013, 12:27 am

aspieMD wrote:
Later that day I made a meme and posted it on my facebook wall. It had a picture of an asian in a labcoat and went something like this:
Anatomy Lab: Dissects pig heart
Lunch time: Dissects chicken heart.


Your joke would obviously be taken as racist. Firstly what is an "Asian" in a labcoat? Asia represents about 4000 different groups of people , hundreds of religions etc, it's about as meaningful as saying a "white person" in a labcoat.

Secondly you are making assumption this gentleman eats chicken hearts because he is Asian? that seems a tad narrow minded

Thirdly if you are planning to be a doctor then I suggest you don;t make assumptions about people when they walk into your clinic, Asians are not all the same and probably don;t appreciate your sense of humor.



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03 Oct 2013, 3:30 am

I think a bit problem for many in this thread is that they think "That shouldn't be offensive" so they decide that the person or people who get offended are just doing it because they want to be offended, or they're looking for a reason to pick a fight. And, really, coming from people who are acting like they're totally misunderstood and their ~intentions~ weren't bad, assigning such negative motivations to people who react to what you say and do is BS.

If you upset someone, there are a few ways to respond. Two of them are:

* Try to play the victim as if it's their fault they found what you said or did upsetting. This is bound to inflame and aggravate the situation because you are insisting upon the reality and/or validity of what you did, while denying the reality and/or validity of people's honest reactions to what you did. This is one-sided and comes across very negatively.

* Apologize and move on. This really is not hard to do. Strangely, many people would rather throw huge melodramatic attention-seeking hissy fits about how unfair it is that people were offended by something they said or did than simply just accept that they (probably) unintentionally upset someone, apologize for the mistake, and move on.

If you find yourself responding with things like "political correctness" or "you just want to be offended" this is a sure sign that whatever you think you're saying, what you are really doing is making excuses for being a jerk.

AspieMD

The meme with the pig heart and the chicken heart was racist. It completely lacked the context that you've described for it. Had you simply related your personal story you probably would have received a better reaction. You may not see it as offensive, but that's because of your own ignorance, not because of the way the world works (or how you think it should work).

As for this thread, I am not offended by anything posted in it, but I think a lot of y'all are making excuses for being jerks, and trying to blame the people you've been jerks to rather than dealing with the fact that you've been jerks. Accidentally upsetting someone isn't being a jerk, but treating them like they're the problem because you pissed them off is being a jerk.



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03 Oct 2013, 4:04 am

Are you saying that is reasonable to over react? Surely a responder bares as much responsibility for there own actions as anyone else.