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Why have Most Liberals Become What They Hate?

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zacb
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03 Oct 2013, 10:35 am

This applies somewhat to the Republicans, but they have almost always been straight laced, so that comes without argument. My question is, where have all the civil liberals gone? It seems like liberals not only want to control your money, but your life too, unless you are a protected class. Just look at the contrast between pot users and gay rights activist. Who gets more attention from the Dems? Or what about polygamy, or free internet activist? To me, I am for the most part turned off by both parties, and I wish more people were.



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03 Oct 2013, 11:31 am

You should read the book "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg. He identifies the Progressive movement in the U.S.A as the precursor to the thing that riles you. Long before FDR and the New Deal the Progressive were formulating a role for government that would regulate ever facet of our lives, (for our own good, of course). You can see it in the Teddy Roosevelt Administration and Woodrow Wilson. In 1912 the income tax amendment was passed and in 1913 the Federal Reserve Bank which controls the currency was formed.

In the early days of the Progressive Movement thugs like Mussolini were hailed as a "good thing" for Europe. Hitlers 24 point program outlined in Mein Kampf was identical to the Progressive Agenda in all but five point, the racist items on Hitlers menu. Laws existed in the U.S. for sterilizing the "unfit" and was backed by the Progressive. Margret Sanger was 100 percent for birth control for Negroes.

And so on and so on. You are seeing the logical consequences of the Progressive Movement coming to pass. The Liberal Chickens are coming home to Roost. And the Republicans, these days are no better. Dick Nixon was an outspoken Keynsian for example. And George Bush and his buddies engineered the Big Bailouts for the Capitalist Cronies.

Ruveyn



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03 Oct 2013, 11:37 am

zacb wrote:
This applies somewhat to the Republicans, but they have almost always been straight laced, so that comes without argument. My question is, where have all the civil liberals gone? It seems like liberals not only want to control your money, but your life too, unless you are a protected class. Just look at the contrast between pot users and gay rights activist. Who gets more attention from the Dems? Or what about polygamy, or free internet activist?

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.

Are you saying that the Democratic party is authoritarian?
Are you saying that people with left wing views in the USA are authoritarian?

Your examples, if anything, made your position less clear.



zacb
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03 Oct 2013, 11:40 am

I know that the right is often authoritarian, but the Democratic Party for the most part is (with the exception of Mark Udell and Sen. Wyden). Why can't there be more Wydens and Kucinichs in congress? I would vote for them before I would most Republicans. That is my point.



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03 Oct 2013, 11:47 am

If you consider the Democratic Party representative of liberalism you are very mistaken. Much in the same way that the current incarnation of the GOP doesn't seem very conservative. I admire Dwight Eisenhower as a president and he was conservative but simultaneously actually made sense. Current GOP and Tea Party "conservatism" have little in common with Eisenhower who imo was the last great Republican president


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03 Oct 2013, 11:52 am

zacb wrote:
I know that the right is often authoritarian, but the Democratic Party for the most part is (with the exception of Mark Udell and Sen. Wyden). Why can't there be more Wydens and Kucinichs in congress? I would vote for them before I would most Republicans. That is my point.

Sorry, those names mean very little to me!

I was not suggesting the Democrats are libertarian (though I do believe they are more libertarian than the Republicans, for the most part, although it's not like that is saying anything). I just wasn't sure what you meant by comparing pot to gay rights, or internet freedom campaigners to polygamists. I also wasn't sure whether you meant the Democrats or the left or liberals. It's hard to describe the Democratic party as left wing- they're a party of low tax! And they're not libertarian either.



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03 Oct 2013, 11:55 am

Vigilans wrote:
If you consider the Democratic Party representative of liberalism you are very mistaken. Much in the same way that the current incarnation of the GOP doesn't seem very conservative. I admire Dwight Eisenhower as a president and he was conservative but simultaneously actually made sense. Current GOP and Tea Party "conservatism" have little in common with Eisenhower who imo was the last great Republican president


Similar to what Vigilans said, if you are going to talk about liberalism online you have to specify which country. liberalism =/= democrat, conservative=/= republican.


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03 Oct 2013, 12:09 pm

ruveyn wrote:
You should read the book "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg. He identifies the Progressive movement in the U.S.A as the precursor to the thing that riles you. Long before FDR and the New Deal the Progressive were formulating a role for government that would regulate ever facet of our lives, (for our own good, of course). You can see it in the Teddy Roosevelt Administration and Woodrow Wilson. In 1912 the income tax amendment was passed and in 1913 the Federal Reserve Bank which controls the currency was formed.

In the early days of the Progressive Movement thugs like Mussolini were hailed as a "good thing" for Europe. Hitlers 24 point program outlined in Mein Kampf was identical to the Progressive Agenda in all but five point, the racist items on Hitlers menu. Laws existed in the U.S. for sterilizing the "unfit" and was backed by the Progressive. Margret Sanger was 100 percent for birth control for Negroes.

And so on and so on. You are seeing the logical consequences of the Progressive Movement coming to pass. The Liberal Chickens are coming home to Roost. And the Republicans, these days are no better. Dick Nixon was an outspoken Keynsian for example. And George Bush and his buddies engineered the Big Bailouts for the Capitalist Cronies.

Ruveyn

Goldberg is an idiot. The liberal dream is a state like Denmark. Yes, taxes are high, but no one has to worry about unemployment, getting pregnant and losing their job, health care, or being able to afford a college education. Surprise, it takes a substantial amount of administration to organize this, and this is the "big government" boogeyman the cons are always complaining about.



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03 Oct 2013, 12:32 pm

zacb wrote:
This applies somewhat to the Republicans, but they have almost always been straight laced, so that comes without argument. My question is, where have all the civil liberals gone? It seems like liberals not only want to control your money, but your life too, unless you are a protected class. Just look at the contrast between pot users and gay rights activist. Who gets more attention from the Dems? Or what about polygamy, or free internet activist? To me, I am for the most part turned off by both parties, and I wish more people were.


Are you asking about liberals or about libertarians?

Liberalism is about creating the greatest opportunities for the greatest number of people. Using the power of the State to redistribute wealth (which the United States does in spades, btw), and to ensure comparable levels of access to public goods--those things that it's in no one's commercial interest to ensure universal access to, but which benefit us all: infrastructure, education, health, employment, and housing.

Pot users, polygamists and copyright violators aren't exactly demonstrating impediments of access to public goods.


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03 Oct 2013, 12:59 pm

Delphiki wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
If you consider the Democratic Party representative of liberalism you are very mistaken. Much in the same way that the current incarnation of the GOP doesn't seem very conservative. I admire Dwight Eisenhower as a president and he was conservative but simultaneously actually made sense. Current GOP and Tea Party "conservatism" have little in common with Eisenhower who imo was the last great Republican president


Similar to what Vigilans said, if you are going to talk about liberalism online you have to specify which country. liberalism =/= democrat, conservative=/= republican.

And ofc democrat=/= Democrat (I am sure the vast majority of users on here are democrats, even conservatives from Australia) and Republican=/=republican (right-wing parties outside of republics tend to be monarchist).



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03 Oct 2013, 1:00 pm

zacb wrote:
This applies somewhat to the Republicans, but they have almost always been straight laced, so that comes without argument. My question is, where have all the civil liberals gone? It seems like liberals not only want to control your money, but your life too, unless you are a protected class. Just look at the contrast between pot users and gay rights activist. Who gets more attention from the Dems? Or what about polygamy, or free internet activist? To me, I am for the most part turned off by both parties, and I wish more people were.

Google the phrase "Limousine Liberal", or read the Wikipedia Article.

Quote:
Limousine liberal is a pejorative American political term used to illustrate hypocrisy by a political liberal of upper class or upper middle class status; including calls for the use of mass transit while frequently using limousines or private jets, claiming environmental consciousness but driving low MPG sports cars or SUVs, or ostensibly supporting public education while actually sending their children to private schools.


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03 Oct 2013, 1:34 pm

zacb wrote:
My question is, where have all the civil liberals gone?


The consistent ones have gone libertarian, along with the consistent economic liberals; free minds and free markets isn't just a slogan for us.


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Fnord
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03 Oct 2013, 1:40 pm

Dox47 wrote:
zacb wrote:
My question is, where have all the civil liberals gone?
The consistent ones have gone libertarian, along with the consistent economic liberals; free minds and free markets isn't just a slogan for us.

Personal freedom without personal accountability is Anarchy, not Liberalism.


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03 Oct 2013, 1:42 pm

Dox47 wrote:
zacb wrote:
My question is, where have all the civil liberals gone?


The consistent ones have gone libertarian, along with the consistent economic liberals; free minds and free markets isn't just a slogan for us.


Not all Libertarians are in favor of a free market.


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Dox47
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03 Oct 2013, 2:07 pm

Why have Most Liberals Become What They Hate?

Easy, their guy got elected, and suddenly all the bad things W did don't seem quite so bad now that it's Obama doing them. Anyone seen the anti-war left lately?


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03 Oct 2013, 2:09 pm

Fnord wrote:
Personal freedom without personal accountability is Anarchy, not Liberalism.


Did I say anything about no personal accountability?


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