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1000Knives
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08 Oct 2013, 9:42 pm

The other thing I may add is don't make your diet your religion. People tend to do this with diets that aren't mainstream, to the point it becomes basically it's own cult with no dissenting thought left. This happens with veganism, low carb, Paleo, etc. People believe their diet is "the way" for everyone to follow, and if the other person doesn't follow it exactly, then they're lesser or don't know "the truth" etc.

A lot of stereotypes about vegans exist for that reason, about them being judgmental toward meat eaters, etc. On the flip side, take low carbers or Paleo dieters, they're the same way toward others that don't follow their beliefs about diets. Both these sides form dietary cults. An example I know is with raw vegans. They can't even eat with anyone else ever so they have to throw "fruit parties" and ridiculous stuff like that. In this case, instead of the diet just being one positive factor influencing their life, it controls their entire life.



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10 Oct 2013, 12:07 pm

Being Vegan is alright- as long as you do it properly and take the appropriate suppliments. The thing is though, it is an extreme diet, as human have evolved to be omnivores. If we were meant to be vegans from birth to death, we would have the appropriate plant grinding teeth that you find in herbivores and a large cecum, both which are necessary to subsist entirely on plants. Also doctors would not be advising against Veganism for pregnant women, babies, or growing children.

What many hardcore and strident Vegans like to say about eating meat being cruel and uses a lot of crops, well a lot of that comes from the popular practice of factory farming and the heavy use of corn to fatten up most food animals for slaughter. That gets eliminated if you simply buy from ethical farmers, whose lively-hood depends on not stressing out their animals or feeding them cheap grain. Plus you could also hunt if you ever worry about cruelty, you can make sure the animal dies humanely.

I myself am largely Vegetarian, but it's mainly out of necessity (being lower cost) over anything to do with ethics. However, I do make sure that I eat a large variety of plants, which is the key to staying healthy in any diet. I would highly recommend a doctor visit beforehand (to make sure there is no hidden health issues that might be made worse by this diet) and advice from a nutritionist, just to make sure that you know what best plants to eat and how to prepare them, and what vitamin supplements you might need.


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10 Oct 2013, 7:50 pm

For those concerned about using the Earth's resources or taking up too much land bear in mind organic food uses twice as much land. It's just a rejection of the innovations in farming from the last one hundred years. No problem for your veggie patch but not good for commercial scale agriculture. Science based agriculture has the potential to feed the world. Even the Amish are happy to use GM crops.

For those who say vegetarians are healthier, you're probably right but correlation doesn't imply causation. It could be that they're more health conscious in general. It could be that they carefully analyse their nutrition whereas omnivores do not. It could be that the vegetarian diet just has less calories and their health benefits come from not having too many calories. A reduction of caloric intake without cutting meat could have the same effect.



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10 Oct 2013, 8:08 pm

Going vegan was one of the best things i have ever done.



1000Knives
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10 Oct 2013, 11:16 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
For those concerned about using the Earth's resources or taking up too much land bear in mind organic food uses twice as much land. It's just a rejection of the innovations in farming from the last one hundred years. No problem for your veggie patch but not good for commercial scale agriculture. Science based agriculture has the potential to feed the world. Even the Amish are happy to use GM crops.

For those who say vegetarians are healthier, you're probably right but correlation doesn't imply causation. It could be that they're more health conscious in general. It could be that they carefully analyse their nutrition whereas omnivores do not. It could be that the vegetarian diet just has less calories and their health benefits come from not having too many calories. A reduction of caloric intake without cutting meat could have the same effect.


Or we don't all eat a zillion pounds of meat a year and don't need GM crops to feed the world?



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11 Oct 2013, 3:29 am

Metalwolf wrote:
Being Vegan is alright- as long as you do it properly and take the appropriate suppliments. The thing is though, it is an extreme diet, as human have evolved to be omnivores. If we were meant to be vegans from birth to death, we would have the appropriate plant grinding teeth that you find in herbivores and a large cecum, both which are necessary to subsist entirely on plants. Also doctors would not be advising against Veganism for pregnant women, babies, or growing children.
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Being vegan is not about grass and leafes eating, that forces you to grind the food mechanical before eating it. As well as the human digesting system is highly specialised on our ability to heat and cook food. So when it comes to raw food, anyway if flesh or vegetarian, we have an shitty digesting and stomache immune system, in comparison to almost every other animal on earth. Simply, because of our race cooking food since nearly 1.000.000 years as archaelogists found out. By heating food many damaging bacterias and poisonous substances are destroyed, so our digestive system needed the ability to deal with those less and less. Additional cooking destroys the "stability" of an material, and making the food softer and easier to chew for us, giving us as well less need for mawing and crushing teeth.

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For those concerned about using the Earth's resources or taking up too much land bear in mind organic food uses twice as much land. It's just a rejection of the innovations in farming from the last one hundred years. No problem for your veggie patch but not good for commercial scale agriculture. Science based agriculture has the potential to feed the world. Even the Amish are happy to use GM crops.


The thread was about vegetarian diet, and not about organic food. Anyway if organic or classic industrial, the ressources you need for the production of the same amount in calories in flesh, is a multiple of those that you need, when producing that calories in vegetable food. To receive in the end a certain portion of calories in flesh, the animal offering those flesh, must be fed daily for a long time, with an much higher amount of calories. Science based agriculture doesnt change, that cows must be feeded during their life with much more food, then they provide themselves after slaughtering.



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11 Oct 2013, 6:05 am

Schneekugel wrote:
The thread was about vegetarian diet, and not about organic food.


Okay your right but it got brought up.

Schneekugel wrote:
Anyway if organic or classic industrial, the ressources you need for the production of the same amount in calories in flesh, is a multiple of those that you need, when producing that calories in vegetable food. To receive in the end a certain portion of calories in flesh, the animal offering those flesh, must be fed daily for a long time, with an much higher amount of calories. Science based agriculture doesnt change, that cows must be feeded during their life with much more food, then they provide themselves after slaughtering.


I was referring to science based crops not science based meat. It's very true that crops use less land than meat but if your a vegetarian who doesn't buy into the organic hype than you could use up even less land.

As for science based meat, wait for in vitro meat. It's cruelty free and uses up less resources.



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11 Oct 2013, 7:21 pm

Gevan wrote:
Going vegan was one of the best things i have ever done.


I have to say that going vegetarian along with taking up exercise several times a week, is the best thing I've ever chosen to do. I think it exceeds going to university for me.



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12 Oct 2013, 1:37 am

I'm a vegan and I'd pretty much say no, it's not a great idea. But yeah, if it works for you, then do it.


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15 Oct 2013, 9:12 am

Metalwolf wrote:
Being Vegan is alright- as long as you do it properly and take the appropriate suppliments. The thing is though, it is an extreme diet, as human have evolved to be omnivores.


... no, they haven't.
Countless resources and nutritionists agree that this isn't the case.


Metalwolf wrote:
If we were meant to be vegans from birth to death, we would have the appropriate plant grinding teeth that you find in herbivores and a large cecum, both which are necessary to subsist entirely on plants.


Humans have teeth like say, a gorilla... rather than a snout full of teeth comparable to say, a wolf.

Or well, the humans who I've ever seen do.
I don't know about you.
;-)

Anyway, this was covered in that topic about vegetarianism.
So, it's pointless to go over it again here.

Metalwolf wrote:
Also doctors would not be advising against Veganism for pregnant women, babies, or growing children.


.. not if they actually know what they're talking about, they don't.

It's also worth bearing in mind that most doctors have barely 1 day of training in nutrition across 6 years in medical school.
You may as well ask a random punter off the street about nutrition and follow their advice, if you're going to ask a doctor and just assume that they know what they're talking about.
It's equivalent to asking a structural builder about wiring electrics, and assuming that they would know all about it.
Which is equally as unlikely.

I find it interesting that few people seem to care about it even if they know full well that they have health issues which are made worse by eating flesh.... but as soon as somebody decides to be vegetarian or vegan, they go craaaazy.
:roll: and suddenly, nearly everybody thinks they're a qualified nutritionist without needing to do any actual study on the subject.... and thinks they have the authority to instruct other people by throwing all sorts of questionable "facts" and "advice" around.


I also think that a lot of people who care about cruelty to animals won't be very impressed by the notion that as long as people go about killing them personally, then it's all fine.



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21 Oct 2013, 10:47 am

Girlwithaspergers wrote:
I have never cared much for meat, and I tend to lean towards dairy a lot, but it gives me some oedema, so I am thinking of being vegan. Has anybody tried this?


If eating dairy products is hurting you, you probably should stop eating them. Veganism seems unrelated, or at least a rather extreme response to the problem.

Anyway, I've tried vegan as part of my search for the diet I liked best. In the end I quit because it didn't do much good for me and was a lot of work to keep up. I currently eat whatever I want to eat, provided it's not something advertised, and the base ingredients are themselves edible. Ice cream and eating with other people are exceptions. Ice cream because I like it too much and eating with other people because as an autistic being around other people is hard enough without letting a diet get in the way.



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21 Oct 2013, 4:36 pm

the point is that if i have to give up a food group i love, than i would also want to give up the one i hate so i wont be eating disgusting meats when i can't have the milk that i love more than anything.



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22 Oct 2013, 3:53 am

Arent there any organic farms , that sell their milk at your place? I avoid eating flesh that comes from industrial agrar farms, but the cows that I pass at the farms, when I drive to work, look pretty happy at their maws, so I dont mind eating them or drinking their milk.



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26 Oct 2013, 3:10 pm

Girlwithaspergers wrote:
the point is that if i have to give up a food group i love, than i would also want to give up the one i hate so i wont be eating disgusting meats when i can't have the milk that i love more than anything.


Meat is a rather large food group to give up on all at once. There are a lot of different meats and a lot of different ways to prepare them, are you sure you dislike all meats in all forms? And how about eggs and fish?
If you can just substitute eggs/fish/other meat for the meat you don't like, that's by far the easiest way to go. I don't think there's anything in meat you can't find in eggs/fish, although I'm by no means an expert on the topic. Assuming you like at least some fish/egg/meat, keeping eating that is far more convenient than a vegan diet which would require meticulous planning of what nutrients you're going to get from what foods and supplementation on top of that.



Ladywoofwoof
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30 Oct 2013, 2:08 am

Flesh really isn't especially nutritious, and people who eat it ought to be "meticulously planning their nutrition" just as much as vegetarians or vegans.
It's shocking to see how many people who eat a lot of flesh are deficient in things like Vitamin B12 and Omega 3 EFA, for example.
A lot of them would benefit from taking supplements (especially Vitamin B12, Omega 3 and Vitamin C) , but instead many flesh eaters seen to have a peculiar notion that eating flesh provides every nutrition ever needed by a human in a perfect balance ratio. Which is just silly.



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30 Oct 2013, 1:31 pm

bookwyrm wrote:
Being vegan makes sense in so many ways. It is the healthiest diet, it avoids all that cruelty and it means that you aren't taking up ten times your share of the world's food resources.


^^
That is a matter of opinion stemmed from mainstream thinking. It's also incorrect. Vegan/vegetarian diets are NOT the healthiest diets because it doesn't contain healthy fats our bodies need.

1) If you're wanting to be a vegetarian to "avoid cruelty to animals" .. that's your decision. Just keep in mind, have you ever seen how wild animals eat each other?

2) If dairy is bothering you, instead of going vegan, how about eliminating dairy or use a substitute (goat dairy)?

When it comes to meat, what IS bad is when hormones, additives, antibiotics, colouring, etc has been added to it.
If you can find yourself some organic meats that are grass-fed, you're likely going to feel better.

Having said that,
I was tested for food sensitivities and found out I'm sensitive to: beef and turkey. If your body "doesn't like meat", maybe you should get yourself tested by a professional. This test will be different than a standard allergy test.