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aussiebloke
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04 Nov 2013, 9:14 pm

kx250rider wrote:
I don't think being a vegan (in the extreme or absolute sense) is a healthy lifestyle, but that's my own opinion. I eat all things in moderation, and use common sense in choosing what I eat. I avoid all fried foods, and avoid most packaged food, but I do eat all types of basic food including red & white meats, and grains, dairy, fruits & vegetables.

I think being a vegan could be a health threat for some people, because there are certain types of protein which are only present in meats or dairy. Some people will argue that a human does not need those particular proteins, so it's an open debate I guess.

Bottom line is do what makes you feel healthiest.

Charles


clearly you have never been on vegan bodybuilder.com even Carl Lewis preformed better on this diet, though every jak ass is getting on the "band wagon" I was 8O to read even Mike Tyson is one now and he has pigeons to :D


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06 Nov 2013, 4:25 pm

aussiebloke wrote:
bookwyrm wrote:
Being vegan makes sense in so many ways. It is the healthiest diet, it avoids all that cruelty and it means that you aren't taking up ten times your share of the world's food resources.

Personally I couldn't eat a dead animal - that is so disgusting, the thought makes me shudder. For a long time I was just a strict veggie - no eggs either - eating an embryo - foul. But it meant that I was relying too much on dairy which is very unhealthy and there is lots of cruelty involved there too. So for the past few years I've been vegan. I love cooking and the food is delicious. Some might find it too time consuming to cook everything from scratch but there are lots of prepared foods available too. At this point chocolate, once a vice of mine, just seems nasty, a lump of fat. And even cheese had lost its appeal, I did used to love it. But now chick peas hold far more appeal.

Go for it:)


agreed dark choclate is so much nicer or is this a lump of fat to ? Dark choclate is also quite fatty 8O


Dark chocolate seems just as disgusting now. Just becasue its vegan doesn't mean its nice. And anyway it triggers migraines for me.

I find I can't stomach any processed food any more. But then cooking is my special interest, and I spend several hours a day at it. My sister on the other hand (who is one of those evangelical vegans that annoy so many people - if she had been vegan before me I never would have become vegan, so I do understand people's irritation) loves all the fast food vegan imitation meat and the sweet puddings etc. It really irritates me that the vegan magazines are full of imitation meat. Meat is just so unnecessary. I don't have any difficulty getting the right nutrients, as someone mentioned Marmite sorts the B12 problem. I find that when I need it I crave it. I'm eating toast and marmite everyday at present, but at other times, once I'm topped up, I don't need it for months as the body stores it well. No other supplementation is necessary.

I'm no campaigner, I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just answering a question that was asked. I find it very upsetting that people feel the need to rubbish a vegan diet and attack vegans. Living with my sister I understand some can be annoying, but that doesn't give people the right to be so agressive.



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06 Nov 2013, 4:51 pm

Our Marmite is made in New Zealand after that earth tremor their I wasn't able to access it for a looooong time :cry: sadly Kraft (who own Vegemite) have a monopoly of the spent brewers yeat market, would like to try the uk one as I've read it's quite different. :o


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06 Nov 2013, 4:53 pm

Is it age related ? I'm getting that way to my Mom is a raw vegan and she's lost weight and is so much healthier looking, I think I could go that way though not 100%


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aussiebloke
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06 Nov 2013, 4:55 pm

I had a small milk chocolate bar the other day to "remind" me what I was missing I swear I could taste the cow :wink:


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10 Nov 2013, 2:24 am

In a word: No. In two words: Hell no.

If you were concerned with animal welfare, didn't believe that the research has shown that plant intelligence is an actual thing (a topic into which I won't go, as the research and its findings are highly debateable to the point that I won't even try to pretend that my view on it has been reasonably proven), and were willing to take the hit to your health for the sake of fewer dead cows, I'd tell you to go for it, but keep an eye on your health. That doesn't seem to be the case, however, and so I don't think you'll find the health detriments to be worth it.

First of all, let's start with the whole "animal protein vs. plant protein"... thing. For a very long time, I thought that anyone making the claim that animal protein was something that was necessary was an idiot. Common knowledge at its finest, plants provide all the essential amino acids. And then I did the research, and was left with a burning question: Why, if plant protein is as worthwhile as animal protein, do vegetarians have trouble with muscle mass? Well, a few simple reasons: First of all, animal protein is far more absorbable than plant protein (I had a better source at one point, but I lost it, so my apologies that this source is not the best it can be). Soy is at the top of the list for absorbable plant protein, but in general, you're going to have to consume a lot more protein from plant sources for your body to get the same amount of protein. But there's an underlying issue to consider when talking about complete proteins. See, a lot of the pro-meat argument comes in the form of meat having "complete proteins," and a lot of the pro-plant argument comes in the form of the right combination of plants having "complete proteins." What they mean is that we, as humans, absolutely and 100% need 9 different amino acids in certain amounts. Humans can synthesize other amino acids using these, but conversion is a tricky business. See, we can technically convert ALA into EPA and EPA into DHA, but in actual practice, trying to get your DHA from ALA is a bit of a fool's errand, especially for men. This is why so many of the "non-essential" amino acids are considered to be "conditionally essential." In other words, your body might not be able to convert enough, whether because your body needs more (and keep in mind that this could be as simple as resulting from your level of physical activity) or because you can't convert as much. Even if you can, you need to consider a simple fact: Conversion doesn't mean that it appears out of nowhere. It starts with something. Proline, for example, requires glutamate, which means that, if you're not getting enough proline (picked at random, but actually a good example as it's mainly found in animal sources), your body needs to use glutamate to produce the proline. This means that your glutamate requirements go up. In other words, yes, animal proteins are superior to plant proteins and this is an issue that vegetarians and vegans have, though as BIA scales aren't very common, you won't find many vegetarians and vegans discussing this.

But let's go back to that talk of EPA and DHA. As mentioned before, conversion of ALA into long-chain omega-3 fatty acids is pretty poor in the best of circumstances. It's too bad, then, that omega-6 intake reduces the conversion rate. It's rather unfortunate, then, that this is something of which vegetarians get quite a bit. Long-chain omega-3 fatty acids have a whole host of health benefits, but the one I'd like to mention most significantly is how deficiencies can cause mental disorders. This could explain, then, why vegetarians have such higher rates of mental disorders than omnivores. By the way, something was mentioned in the conclusion of that study and I want to go back to it and talk about something that will blow your friggin' mind (not really, but I've always wanted to say that).

I'm going to discuss one more specific deficiency before I get to that, though: B12. This is a big one. B12 deficiency can bring about hyperhomocysteinemia, which is bad for mind and body. The good news is that B12 deficiency can take years to actually develop. The bad news is that vegetarians and vegans are very often deficient, with it becoming more likely the longer they are on their diets. Supplements do help extend this, but they cannot be a substitute for meat consumption. I want to stress this table, because it is absolutely important. As just an example of how serious this issue is, the vegan vitamin-using group had 29% of its members having a B12 deficiency, compared with 1% of the omnivorous group as a whole. Remember that the omnivore group was not divided into vitamin users vs. non-users.

And hey, that brings us back to the issue of that conclusion. You'll note that they talked about there being no causal link. Why? Well, because "correlation does not imply causation." Observational studies are sometimes important indicators, but other times, they lie through their teeth. A funny story about studies that "prove" that vegetarian and vegan diets are healthier is that they are rarely ever clinical trials (and even more rare is one where the interpretation of the results is accurate). They are almost invariably pilot studies or, more often, observational studies. There's an innate problem with these, though: Confounding variables. Simply put: Just because you found an inverse correlation between amount of hair and convertible ownership doesn't mean that open-top cars cause people to bald. When it comes to nutrition, though, there's a particular important variable concerning vegetarians and vegans, and it can be found in any study that bothers to ask. Did you spot it? Vegetarians (and vegans to a much larger degree) are less likely to smoke, they drink less, they exercise more, are more likely to take supplements... in other words, vegetarians are more health-conscious. This confounding variable is pretty huge, and it's a major problem because it's actually impossible to control for it. The good news (not so much for vegetarians and vegans) is that there are clinical trials that show the effects of a meat-free diet by itself. As I said: Not good. A side note on that trial is that the meat-eating group also included things like processed meat, fast food, etc. And yet, they still fared better than the vegetarian group, especially in terms of heart health and "violence" (I'm assuming that suicide is included in that, which would explain the much higher vegetarian group number, but I could be wrong). On the flip side, I have pointed to a few observational studies here. As I said before, they are sometimes important indicators, especially considering the fact that there's not really a good explanation for why vegetarians have higher rates of mental disorders or B12 deficiency from increased health consciousness.

And keep in mind that I only went into a few issues here. I did not discuss the difficulty vegans and vegetarians can have with retinol, thanks to poor absorption of carotenoids and their deleterious effects, or any number of other issues that vegans and vegetarians face. I'm using retinol as an example of issues I didn't discuss. There are so very many and it's already long past when I should have been in bed and I still have to put together the stuff for beef broth.

aussiebloke wrote:
Is it age related ? I'm getting that way to my Mom is a raw vegan and she's lost weight and is so much healthier looking, I think I could go that way though not 100%


Any time someone talks about a raw vegan diet, I'm always reminded of an interview with Kaleigh Mason, a former raw vegan. Specifically, when she talks about her reasons for becoming raw vegan and how adamant it was that it was improving her health, even as she became weaker, more tired, and her mental disorders worsened. It's n = 1, but it's really a rather sad tale, though I suppose it ends on a positive note.

Edit: I forgot that links on WP are very poorly indicated. Went through and underlined all links... or, at the very least, most of them.



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10 Nov 2013, 2:37 am

My gp said my "blood was worth bottling" and I've spoken to many other vegans who have had similar experiences, all with out supplements, go figure ?


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CocoaNut
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10 Nov 2013, 3:20 am

aussiebloke wrote:
My gp said my "blood was worth bottling" and I've spoken to many other vegans who have had similar experiences, all with out supplements, go figure ?


If you want me to figure, I'll point to the fact that GPs tend to get fanatical about total cholesterol and total LDL, meanwhile ignoring high triglycerides and low HDL, which are indicative of small LDL over large LDL. They also tend to ignore the fact that large LDL may even have a protective effect, whereas small LDL is the predictor that's caused us to worry over our total LDL, not to mention that low cholesterol isn't exactly ideal (there are other effects that low cholesterol can have, but it's already even later than before). In case you're wondering, replacing carbohydrates with any fatty acid increases LDL and lowers triglycerides, with unsaturated fats lowering LDL and saturated fat increasing LDL, though as I mentioned before, the issue is HDL/trig, something that saturated fat improves far more than unsaturated fats.

The reason why I came back here is that I forgot to mention a couple things to the OP:

1. If you're having trouble with dairy, then forego dairy. I like it in my diet, but that's honestly more an issue of taste than actual necessity, though I also don't adhere to the idea that dairy is necessarily bad (though it is for some people).
2. I feel your pain when it comes to not liking meat. Even now, when I eat meat with every meal, there is not a single time where I eat it that I haven't seriously altered the flavor. The closest thing to only meat that I eat is when I have pork chops. I make rosemary porkchops with so much cream gravy that they swim in it. Otherwise, the meat is highly seasoned and whatnot. I have found myself appreciating meat more, however. That said, I think I'm probably still a bit off from steak.



Last edited by CocoaNut on 10 Nov 2013, 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Nov 2013, 11:03 am

I am personally considering it because I rarely eat meat to begin with. I only have it once every couple of weeks and I mainly consume dairy products and carbs. I have done this all my life and have never had deficiencies. When I feel a little weak, some chocolate candy or peanuts will take care of it. My lactose intolerance has never really made me sick. It just makes me bloat and lose some of my shape, which it a. Highly conscious of. But, to put it quite plainly, I've already been living without meat for the most part. My mom tries getting me to eat it so I can feel fuller, but, personally, I don't like it. If I have eggs in the morning or meat for lunch, per say, I feel so full just from eating it that it sort of nauseates me and I don't really eat much for a couple of days after that. Like I said, curves are a big deal to me, so I don't want to drop weight either. So, instead, I let myself get thickened up on carbs and (for now) dairy. And, yes, I will eat things like chicken or fish but only when doused in sauces because of my SED. As far as beef, I almost never eat it and I have not eaten a steak in five years. Even if it tastes good, I just can't get myself to swallow such a huge lump of stringy, veiny mass.



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10 Nov 2013, 12:04 pm

Girlwithaspergers wrote:
I am personally considering it because I rarely eat meat to begin with. I only have it once every couple of weeks and I mainly consume dairy products and carbs. I have done this all my life and have never had deficiencies.


The problem with a lot of deficiencies based around low meat consumption is that, in the early stages, or when the deficiency is minor, it's asymptomatic (or else subtly neurological). In other words: Subclinical B12 deficiency is a serious problem that isn't easily identified. This isn't vitamin C, where the early stages are easily identifiable. Saying that you haven't felt any deficiency symptoms, then, doesn't say much about your tHcy or its overall effect on your health. Keep in mind that that's an example of B12 deficiency. Once again, I feel that listing all the various nutrient deficiencies and the issues with identifying those deficiencies wouldn't really help anything, as I'd essentially be repeating the same thing, just with a different nutrient.

Quote:
My mom tries getting me to eat it so I can feel fuller, but, personally, I don't like it. If I have eggs in the morning or meat for lunch, per say, I feel so full just from eating it that it sort of nauseates me


This is actually not an uncommon problem with people that eat low fat, especially vegetarians, vegans, and proto-vegetarians. A number of possible causes come to mind, including the fact that your body adjusts to circumstances and if you're not getting a lot of protein, your body isn't going to expend the energy to produce the enzymes required for their digestion, which is why one recommendation for ex-vegetarians is to start with a small amount of meat and work your way up from there.

Another issue that could be present is low hydrochloric acid, which can come about via a zinc deficiency, one of those deficiencies that can arise from not eating meat, especially if you're not into nuts and seeds. If you think this might be an issue and you're interested in correcting this problem, maybe try adding a few smoked oysters (starting with a small amount and adding one or two oysters as you go) to lunch for a few days before trying to eat any significant amount of protein. Of course, if your diet is very low in salt, that might be the issue as well. You could try pan-frying the oysters (not breading them first) and making a cream sauce, or else adding them to a soup.

It could also be unrelated to the issue of the protein. A lack of dietary cholesterol can result in a lack of bile acids important in fat digestion. This might actually be more likely if chicken or fish doesn't cause you problems, but fattier meats do.



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10 Nov 2013, 7:46 pm

Girlwithaspergers wrote:
I have never cared much for meat, and I tend to lean towards dairy a lot, but it gives me some oedema, so I am thinking of being vegan. Has anybody tried this?


Grain products have been pegged as producing water retention. If you're sensitive to dairy, try goat products. If you're not liking meat, test various meats (organic, grass fed) until you find a few that you enjoy. What have you been adding to your meats that you're not enjoying?



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10 Nov 2013, 9:09 pm

ASDsmom wrote:
Girlwithaspergers wrote:
I have never cared much for meat, and I tend to lean towards dairy a lot, but it gives me some oedema, so I am thinking of being vegan. Has anybody tried this?


Grain products have been pegged as producing water retention. If you're sensitive to dairy, try goat products. If you're not liking meat, test various meats (organic, grass fed) until you find a few that you enjoy. What have you been adding to your meats that you're not enjoying?


Honestly, I think dairy products are more "take 'em or leave 'em" for diets, assuming no sensitivity, but if we're going to delve into that, a lot of people that have trouble with dairy are fine with raw milk products. The issue could very well be the lactose, and raw milk has lactase (the enzyme that breaks down lactose), which is why some lactose intolerant individuals can consume raw milk without issue.

And yeah, grass fed is superior in so many ways. I recently had to cut back and buy some Wal-Mart ground beef. I nearly gagged every time I took a bite of the stuff, even with my seasoned-up-the-wazoo taco bowls. I'm still not on grass fed beef, but I'm using a different brand and it's better in a lot of ways, including flavor and texture. Seriously, the Wal-Mart meat felt like worms in my mouth.



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10 Nov 2013, 11:52 pm

I've tried both raw cow and raw goat milk. Here is the confusing part:
I am sensitive to casein, lactose, cow-milk, whey, goatein and cow-yoghurt. BUT I'm not sensitive to goat milk or goat-yoghurt. The confusing part is that I can drink cow milk without issues (although I get dark rings under my eyes) but it's the GOAT milk that gives me cramps.

I'm not sure what goatein is .. I'll have to google it. I'm going to guess "goat protein"?

EDIT: Just googled. I was right.. it IS goat protein which explains the cramping.



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11 Nov 2013, 11:58 am

ASDsmom wrote:
I've tried both raw cow and raw goat milk. Here is the confusing part:
I am sensitive to casein, lactose, cow-milk, whey, goatein and cow-yoghurt. BUT I'm not sensitive to goat milk or goat-yoghurt. The confusing part is that I can drink cow milk without issues (although I get dark rings under my eyes) but it's the GOAT milk that gives me cramps.

I'm not sure what goatein is .. I'll have to google it. I'm going to guess "goat protein"?

EDIT: Just googled. I was right.. it IS goat protein which explains the cramping.


"I don't try to understand the dairy in my life, I just enjoy its company."



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11 Nov 2013, 10:12 pm

^^ I don't exactly enjoy it when it's giving me cramps and dark rings under my eyes ;)



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06 Dec 2013, 8:27 am

I watched "Fork over knife" last night and I'm considering going vegan.
I'm dairy free already and I haven't eaten animal products other than fish and eggs for over 5 years.
Giving up most of the wheat products (bread, pasta, bakery, crackers) did give me more energy too.
It would be difficult to give up eggs and fish but I'm curious to see if I would feel any better with vegan diet.