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wozeree
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16 Oct 2013, 4:20 pm

Do you guys really not see that the artificial constraint of counting the score (or whatever it was I forgot), caused a major skew in the results? People who look at UFOs or crimes do not have that artificial constraint placed on them. Thus when somebody looks at a plane and sees a UFO it is because of his EMOTIONS or his conditioning or whatever. When somebody looks at the video and didn't the gorilla, it was because of the constraint (there are no emotions or conditioning or any gorilla avoidance issues at play). That is why the study is not valid. The only way it could be valid is if whatever condition it is being compared to has the same or a very similar constraint. That's the difference between science and smoke up our asses! (I'm talking about the study designers, not you guys).

It it no way negates anything you are saying about people deluding themselves, it only negates the design and interpretation of the study!

The fact that they came to the valid conclusion does not mean that they came to the conclusion validly!! !



fibonaccispiral777
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16 Oct 2013, 4:49 pm

wozeree wrote:
Do you guys really not see that the artificial constraint of counting the score (or whatever it was I forgot), caused a major skew in the results? People who look at UFOs or crimes do not have that artificial constraint placed on them. Thus when somebody looks at a plane and sees a UFO it is because of his EMOTIONS or his conditioning or whatever. When somebody looks at the video and didn't the gorilla, it was because of the constraint (there are no emotions or conditioning or any gorilla avoidance issues at play). That is why the study is not valid. The only way it could be valid is if whatever condition it is being compared to has the same or a very similar constraint. That's the difference between science and smoke up our asses! (I'm talking about the study designers, not you guys).

It it no way negates anything you are saying about people deluding themselves, it only negates the design and interpretation of the study!

The fact that they came to the valid conclusion does not mean that they came to the conclusion validly!! !


Wozeree, I think we are perhaps getting mixed up in the points we are trying to make. I AGREE with you the gorilla study does not encompass the fact that emotions distort our perceptions and that it would highly difficult to replicate such an experiment due to the fact that emotions cannot be quantified. Saying this however, as MRI scanners and the technology progresses, we may be able to quantify emotion in mathematical terms and thus be able to perform the experiment to think is key to being able to understand falsifiable memory.

Saying this however, the fact that emotions are not involved in the Gorilla experiment and emotions are involved does not somehow invalidate the experiment, what it demonstrates and how this links in to UFO-sightings. As I have said in previous posts, the gorilla experiment is relevant in so far that the UFO-observer may spot a UFO, however filter out the necessary information in order to decipher why they are witnessing such a phenomenon and therefore their testimony may be false and the conclusions that they come to off the back of such a testimony may also be false.

I think we are in agreement it's just finding the point at which we agree. :)



wozeree
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16 Oct 2013, 6:26 pm

Yeah maybe so!



cyberdad
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17 Oct 2013, 6:11 am

wozeree wrote:
Again, it's a different thing if somebody looks at something and refuses to see it or doesn't cognizantly recognize it because it looks like something their imagination identifies as a UFO and they "only see" the UFO.


I'm not really sure what the relevance of the perceptual blindness has to do with UFOs? The gorilla in your video was not observed because the observers were focusing on the ball game and their attention is saturated with excess stimuli to allow their peripheral vision to detect the man in the gorilla suite. It's a biological phenomena relating to our brain's inability to take in all the environmental data available to them - a kind of selective filter.

The UFOs witnessed by people are observed sometimes for hours, often seen by multiple witnesses and (like the 1952 Washington incident) there is also video evidence.



fibonaccispiral777
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17 Oct 2013, 6:16 am

cyberdad wrote:
wozeree wrote:
Again, it's a different thing if somebody looks at something and refuses to see it or doesn't cognizantly recognize it because it looks like something their imagination identifies as a UFO and they "only see" the UFO.


I'm not really sure what the relevance of the perceptual blindness has to do with UFOs? The gorilla in your video was not observed because the observers were focusing on the ball game and their attention is saturated with excess stimuli to allow their peripheral vision to detect the man in the gorilla suite. It's a biological phenomena relating to our brain's inability to take in all the environmental data available to them - a kind of selective filter.

The UFOs witnessed by people are observed sometimes for hours, often seen by multiple witnesses and (like the 1952 Washington incident) there is also video evidence.


To show how our brain can be fallacious at times. It wasn't necessarily in relation to ufos more of a comment on how the brain can falsify certain memories.



MCalavera
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17 Oct 2013, 7:15 am

cyberdad wrote:
The UFOs witnessed by people are observed sometimes for hours, often seen by multiple witnesses and (like the 1952 Washington incident) there is also video evidence.


The video you're referring to is a reconstruction of what people say they witnessed. It's not a video of the actual sighting.



wozeree
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17 Oct 2013, 11:07 am

Well I think I sort of stated my case so I'm not going to repeat it again. I feel kind of bad I derailed your UFO discussion anyway (I was on a rant). Sorry about that - continue your discussion,

PS - I saw a UFO once, I always though it was some kind of American test thing (it was near NASA).



fibonaccispiral777
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17 Oct 2013, 11:53 am

wozeree wrote:
Well I think I sort of stated my case so I'm not going to repeat it again. I feel kind of bad I derailed your UFO discussion anyway (I was on a rant). Sorry about that - continue your discussion,

PS - I saw a UFO once, I always though it was some kind of American test thing (it was near NASA).


I am also of the belief that most of the things people see they say are ufos are in fact forms of new military technology.



cyberdad
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18 Oct 2013, 5:38 am

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
wozeree wrote:
Again, it's a different thing if somebody looks at something and refuses to see it or doesn't cognizantly recognize it because it looks like something their imagination identifies as a UFO and they "only see" the UFO.


I'm not really sure what the relevance of the perceptual blindness has to do with UFOs? The gorilla in your video was not observed because the observers were focusing on the ball game and their attention is saturated with excess stimuli to allow their peripheral vision to detect the man in the gorilla suite. It's a biological phenomena relating to our brain's inability to take in all the environmental data available to them - a kind of selective filter.

The UFOs witnessed by people are observed sometimes for hours, often seen by multiple witnesses and (like the 1952 Washington incident) there is also video evidence.


To show how our brain can be fallacious at times. It wasn't necessarily in relation to ufos more of a comment on how the brain can falsify certain memories.

Men in gorilla suits relates to perceptual blindness. False memories (a well known phenomena) relates to the inability to recall situation events over time due to confabulation. The issue of alien abduction could be invalidated (not so much UFOs) as it largely involved people recollecting events often many years after their abduction experience. The risk of confabulation and false memories increases with time and is confounded if the person is also a survivor of PTSD or some other trauma.



cyberdad
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18 Oct 2013, 5:45 am

MCalavera wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
The UFOs witnessed by people are observed sometimes for hours, often seen by multiple witnesses and (like the 1952 Washington incident) there is also video evidence.


The video you're referring to is a reconstruction of what people say they witnessed. It's not a video of the actual sighting.


Yes it appears the authenticity of the video is disputed



Last edited by cyberdad on 18 Oct 2013, 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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18 Oct 2013, 5:48 am

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
wozeree wrote:
Well I think I sort of stated my case so I'm not going to repeat it again. I feel kind of bad I derailed your UFO discussion anyway (I was on a rant). Sorry about that - continue your discussion,

PS - I saw a UFO once, I always though it was some kind of American test thing (it was near NASA).


I am also of the belief that most of the things people see they say are ufos are in fact forms of new military technology.


If this is true then they have technology that should have made petroleum based technology redundant as far back as WW2. Given the millions who have subsequently died in oil related battles in the middle east it seems like a monumental crime to keep this secret.



fibonaccispiral777
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18 Oct 2013, 10:19 am

cyberdad wrote:
fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
wozeree wrote:
Well I think I sort of stated my case so I'm not going to repeat it again. I feel kind of bad I derailed your UFO discussion anyway (I was on a rant). Sorry about that - continue your discussion,

PS - I saw a UFO once, I always though it was some kind of American test thing (it was near NASA).


I am also of the belief that most of the things people see they say are ufos are in fact forms of new military technology.


If this is true then they have technology that should have made petroleum based technology redundant as far back as WW2. Given the millions who have subsequently died in oil related battles in the middle east it seems like a monumental crime to keep this secret.


So the oil companies can stay in business perhaps? Plus how does that kind of technology make petroleum based technology redundant?



fibonaccispiral777
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18 Oct 2013, 10:22 am

cyberdad wrote:
fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
wozeree wrote:
Again, it's a different thing if somebody looks at something and refuses to see it or doesn't cognizantly recognize it because it looks like something their imagination identifies as a UFO and they "only see" the UFO.


I'm not really sure what the relevance of the perceptual blindness has to do with UFOs? The gorilla in your video was not observed because the observers were focusing on the ball game and their attention is saturated with excess stimuli to allow their peripheral vision to detect the man in the gorilla suite. It's a biological phenomena relating to our brain's inability to take in all the environmental data available to them - a kind of selective filter.

The UFOs witnessed by people are observed sometimes for hours, often seen by multiple witnesses and (like the 1952 Washington incident) there is also video evidence.


To show how our brain can be fallacious at times. It wasn't necessarily in relation to ufos more of a comment on how the brain can falsify certain memories.

Men in gorilla suits relates to perceptual blindness. False memories (a well known phenomena) relates to the inability to recall situation events over time due to confabulation. The issue of alien abduction could be invalidated (not so much UFOs) as it largely involved people recollecting events often many years after their abduction experience. The risk of confabulation and false memories increases with time and is confounded if the person is also a survivor of PTSD or some other trauma.


I would personally say the two are connected. If you experience perceptual blindness, then your recollection of the event is also limited and thus fallacious to some extent. Also, just because a phenomenon like ufos happens in large groups does not mean perceptual blindness cannot happen on a collective level. Considering our biology is so similar I would find it very likely that our blind spots are very similar. Of course false memories can occur with someone who has been traumatized but it can also happen when people filter out what information is relevant and what is not and not get a whole picture of reality.



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18 Oct 2013, 11:58 am

I love his books. I have all of them in audiobook form. I watch all of the videos of him I can find on youtube. I like listening to him.


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cyberdad
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23 Oct 2013, 5:13 am

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
fibonaccispiral777 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
wozeree wrote:
Again, it's a different thing if somebody looks at something and refuses to see it or doesn't cognizantly recognize it because it looks like something their imagination identifies as a UFO and they "only see" the UFO.


I'm not really sure what the relevance of the perceptual blindness has to do with UFOs? The gorilla in your video was not observed because the observers were focusing on the ball game and their attention is saturated with excess stimuli to allow their peripheral vision to detect the man in the gorilla suite. It's a biological phenomena relating to our brain's inability to take in all the environmental data available to them - a kind of selective filter.

The UFOs witnessed by people are observed sometimes for hours, often seen by multiple witnesses and (like the 1952 Washington incident) there is also video evidence.


To show how our brain can be fallacious at times. It wasn't necessarily in relation to ufos more of a comment on how the brain can falsify certain memories.

Men in gorilla suits relates to perceptual blindness. False memories (a well known phenomena) relates to the inability to recall situation events over time due to confabulation. The issue of alien abduction could be invalidated (not so much UFOs) as it largely involved people recollecting events often many years after their abduction experience. The risk of confabulation and false memories increases with time and is confounded if the person is also a survivor of PTSD or some other trauma.


I would personally say the two are connected. If you experience perceptual blindness, then your recollection of the event is also limited and thus fallacious to some extent. Also, just because a phenomenon like ufos happens in large groups does not mean perceptual blindness cannot happen on a collective level. Considering our biology is so similar I would find it very likely that our blind spots are very similar. Of course false memories can occur with someone who has been traumatized but it can also happen when people filter out what information is relevant and what is not and not get a whole picture of reality.


That's not what perceptual blindness is. It's to do with your attention and the limited resources the brain has being focused on a specific target object or event at a particular time while ignoring the background scenery. That's the underlying reason why nobody notices the man in the gorilla suite because their attention is focused on the basket ball. This has nothing to do with UFOs because almost all witnesses put their attention and focus on the object they are witnessing. For example a reasonable person can distinguish a helicopter or jet plane or passenger airline in the sky. They are not affected by perceptual blindness. For the same reason when a person sees a flying saucer they are able to focus their attention. Even school children know the difference between commercial aircraft, stars, swamp gas, meteors and flying saucers.

Speaking of perceptual blindness
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)