Atheists: How do you feel during the Christmas season?

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naturalplastic
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23 Oct 2013, 3:28 pm

[quote="MCalavera"]Also, if you're just going to quote material from recent authors, that's just going to be pointless:

I might as well post link to Bulfinch's Mythology (heard of it?):

http://www.greekmythology.com/Books/Bul ... finch.html


Also, I never said Jesus was born on December 25 anyway. You keep committing strawmen fallacies on me.

If thats so- that youre not claiming that christ was born on Dec. 25th -then youre admitting that the early church didnt have christ's birth certificate. Which means that they could therefore pick any day as his b-day. And the one day they pick just HAPPENED to be the same day as the b-day of the popular pagan sun god. And that was just a coincidence. You admit that it looks, and quacks like a duck. But maintain that it isnt a duck.

If you say so.



MCalavera
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23 Oct 2013, 6:28 pm

I expect better from you, naturalplastic, than to resort to such poor critical thinking skills.

Christmas was being celebrated on other dates as well and still is. Why are people being so hung up about a date that could've easily been a coincidence? Maybe the March 25 idea explains the Christmas December 25 and maybe Sol Invictus was inspired by Christmas December 25's date (which, by the way, some skeptics have been pondering for quite a while based on a different interpretation).

Do you not think that coincidences should be assumed by default until conclusive evidence? Do you not think that coreelation not equal causation or that there could be a mix up between cause and effect?

Also, consider that the Nativity story was not copied/inspired from paganism. So what exactly was copied/inspired?

If it's feasting, that can be found in the Old Testament as well. So why not say it was Jewish in origin?

If it's Christmas trees and all, they did not define early Christmas, so irrelevant.

And if it's the date, read my post again.

So what then after all this was copied/inspired that should render it pagan in origin?



Last edited by MCalavera on 23 Oct 2013, 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MCalavera
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23 Oct 2013, 6:33 pm

hurtloam wrote:
On my other question about the date. I wonder why Christians felt at all compelled to celebrate Jesus date of birth? And it's really random to celebrate it on a day that seems to be no where near when the person was born. I've read the other New Testement books and noticed that there was a lot of discussion about how to celebrate or how to organise the communion meal observance, but nothing about how to celebrate Jesus birthday and I do wonder where the idea came from. I've always favoured this hijacking the re-birth of the sun idea because it makes sense. I could see people adapting it to suit.


It also makes sense that Sol Invictus borrowed the date from Christmas as well. But it seems because of a strong bias against Christianity that this isn't considered by many thus far.

Also, as you said, they celebrated it on other dates, so December could've been simply a matter of "calculating" when Jesus was born according to the Bible (like all the other dates they came up with).



LKL
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23 Oct 2013, 9:26 pm

crackedpleasures wrote:
Speaking for myself: I quite like Christmas season because all towns are nicely decorated with lot of colourful lights, there is a party atmosphere and people tend to smile a lot, ... which is nice :) The religious aspect, being atheist myself, is of course of no importance to me. I don't celebrate it and just let the day pass (the day itself is rather boring due to many public places being closed) ; the season itself and the nice illuminated places and buildings are quite nice to see even if you're atheist.

Yes. As much as I hate the incense and canned christmas music, I do really enjoy the lights and carolers. I definitely agree with that. Some christmas seasons it seems like I encounter more of the shopping/desperation aspect of christmas, this kind of orgy of consuming cheap plastic crap, and other years I see more of the happiness, families getting back together, anticipation and friendship. Probably it reflects mostly my own state of mind, any given year, which side I focus on - but I do resent, each year, how the xmas season creeps further into autumn. And I dislike the smarmy 'family' movies that appear each year and are advertised incessantly.



ruveyn
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23 Oct 2013, 9:38 pm

After I hear "The Little Drummer Boy" for the 120 th time I sort of wish Christmas was over.

ruveyn



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23 Oct 2013, 10:00 pm

http://freetruth.50webs.org/B1c.htm
http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Legen ... avajo.html
Navaho legend of virgin birth.
I did not say Adonis was born of a virgin,it was comparing the similarities with the crucifixion.


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MCalavera
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23 Oct 2013, 11:08 pm

Adonis was never crucified according to his myths. So not sure where you keep getting those weird ideas from. Have you even read the myth of Adonis?

The first link lacks credibility so it is to be ignored.

Concerning the second link, the child's (Changing Woman) birth is a strange one but it was never in the mother's womb, and it looks more like a mysterious appearance out of nowhere to me.

But either way, this is nowhere close to resembling the Nativity story.



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23 Oct 2013, 11:17 pm

I should have worded that better,resurrection not crucifixion.My mistake.Yes,he comes back as an anemone flower.The windflower.


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23 Oct 2013, 11:23 pm

More info on Laozi.
http://1peter315.wordpress.com/2009/01/ ... gin-birth/


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MCalavera
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23 Oct 2013, 11:36 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I should have worded that better,resurrection not crucifixion.My mistake.Yes,he comes back as an anemone flower.The windflower.


Resurrection of Adonis bit, as far as I know, was never mentioned in a primary source before Christianity. So you can't use this to make a conclusive statement that Jesus' resurrection was inspired by Adonis. Actually, you don't need any prior myths to explain why Christians believed Jesus was resurrected.

If you take the time to read the myth of Adonis, he was slain by a boar and was never said to have been resurrected at all in the original Greek myths before Christianity.

As for the link, you provided, it sounds like Christian apologetics to me. with the author arguing that the virgin birth of Jesus was not inspired by that other guy's account.

Either way, I am curious to know what the primary source says exactly. I checked Wikipedia on Laozi, but the references don't go back to primary sources.



MCalavera
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24 Oct 2013, 12:03 am

Forgot to comment on the anemone bit. That is not Adonis being resurrected even. That's Adonis' blood being sprinkled and turning into flowers. Hardly resurrection and hardly something for the Gospel to be inspired by.



Misslizard
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24 Oct 2013, 12:55 am

His blood gave birth to the flower,typical spring time resurrection and fertility.From death comes life,similar to Tammuz and Ishtar,Attis and Cybele.
Yes,I have read the whole myth.its not really one of my favorites.I enjoyed the stories of Orpheus and Eurydice,and Bacchus and Philemon more.
Madonna Lilies are associated with the resurrection,they were grown in Crete 3500 years ago, before Christ,interesting how they are now associated with Easter.Just a fun fact.


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MCalavera
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24 Oct 2013, 1:05 am

But it wasn't Adonis that was resurrected.

Been a while since I last read Orpheus, Orpheus died at the end but was not resurrected. Eurydice was temporarily resurrected (or sort of) but was quickly back to the dead after Orpheus failed to do his part of the deal.

Bacchus and Philemon? What do they have to do here?

And why does flowers springing forth to life have to have an influence over the Christian belief Jesus resurrection? There is a better more reasonable explanation for that: A failed Messiah must not remain dead but be resurrected. That's all there is to it.

Also, many scholars question the dying-and-rising god hypothesis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying-and-rising_god

Read under scholarly criticism.



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Schneekugel
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24 Oct 2013, 3:03 am

ruveyn wrote:
After I hear "The Little Drummer Boy" for the 120 th time I sort of wish Christmas was over.

ruveyn


Will take "little drummer boys", offer you "Felice Navidad" as exchange. ^^



Misslizard
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24 Oct 2013, 11:29 am

I didn't say they had anything to do with it,I just said I liked them.
If you are a rural person,growing food,I can see the connection with resurrection,In the winter it's dead and barren,but then life reappears in the spring.It's always amazing.


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