Let people understand something about trans people

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beneficii
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27 Oct 2013, 8:30 pm

There seems to be some misconceptions about trans people on this forum. There seems to be this idea that gender dysphoria is a trivial thing, something that you can just reason away when needed. It's true that you can do that to a certain extent; the only problem is that the gender dysphoria always returns and stronger, until you either finally are able to do something about it or you die.

Now, there are two main types of gender dysphoria: social dysphoria, the need to be treated and seen as another gender other than the one assigned as birth, and body dysphoria, the need to modify the body to match the opposite sex in some way. However, a lot of people seem to miss something important about gender dysphoria: It is pain. That's why the word dysphoria appears in the term. This, along with the above paragraph, is why it cannot be reasoned away: Tell the person to suck it up and tough it out all you want--it won't help their pain. That's why doing that is counterproductive. After all, would you tell a depressed person to just suck it up?

Some transgender people have severe body dysphoria. Such people have a need to, say, take hormones or get surgery, or they'll be miserable. That's where the dysphoria comes in, again.

This is why it is so important that transition services be covered. That is what the U.K. and many countries in Europe understand. That is what Argentina and some provinces of Canada understand. Also, it appears that Colorado and Vermont understand that. But when are we going to see it elsewhere?



Kurgan
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27 Oct 2013, 8:47 pm

If you take into consideration that the lines for more important surgeries are growing everyday in Europe, funding gender reassignment surgery would be a waste of government resources. I want veeners, so that my teeth will look perfect for the next decade; this does not mean that I'm entitled to veeners.



adifferentname
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27 Oct 2013, 8:52 pm

Kurgan wrote:
If you take into consideration that the lines for more important surgeries are growing everyday in Europe, funding gender reassignment surgery would be a waste of government resources. I want veeners, so that my teeth will look perfect for the next decade; this does not mean that I'm entitled to veeners.


Also worthy of consideration is the high rate of 'failure' whereby the recipient of gender reassignment is not satisfied with the outcome, whether it be for psychological, physical, hormonal or other reasons.



beneficii
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27 Oct 2013, 8:53 pm

Kurgan wrote:
If you take into consideration that the lines for more important surgeries are growing everyday in Europe, funding gender reassignment surgery would be a waste of government resources. I want veeners, so that my teeth will look perfect for the next decade; this does not mean that I'm entitled to veeners.


Does it cause pain that affects your functioning and makes you contemplate suicide?

Typically, a trans person will experience pain like that; that is why they are often so driven. Such pain does not respond to talk therapy, antipsychotic medications, or anything else. It's also why services are so important.



beneficii
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27 Oct 2013, 8:57 pm

adifferentname wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
If you take into consideration that the lines for more important surgeries are growing everyday in Europe, funding gender reassignment surgery would be a waste of government resources. I want veeners, so that my teeth will look perfect for the next decade; this does not mean that I'm entitled to veeners.


Also worthy of consideration is the high rate of 'failure' whereby the recipient of gender reassignment is not satisfied with the outcome, whether it be for psychological, physical, hormonal or other reasons.


Actually, most recent studies show a regret rate of less than 10%, often much less than that. You also have to look at the kind of regret. Complete regret seems to be fairly rare, from what I've read.

This is a good starting point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexua ... ransitions

In the past (like 70s and 80s), regret was much higher, but that was because surgical procedures were of much lower quality back then.



beneficii
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27 Oct 2013, 8:58 pm

Also, I'd argue that in situations where they cannot get treatment in that situation, assistance should be provided so they can get in such a situation. Especially for disabled members of the trans community, which would include those with autism and executive function issues.



adifferentname
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27 Oct 2013, 9:17 pm

beneficii wrote:

Actually, most recent studies show a regret rate of less than 10%, often much less than that. You also have to look at the kind of regret. Complete regret seems to be fairly rare, from what I've read.

This is a good starting point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexua ... ransitions

In the past (like 70s and 80s), regret was much higher, but that was because surgical procedures were of much lower quality back then.


Levels of regret are hardly the best way to gauge success in this instance, especially considering the deep-rooted psychological effects of gender dysphoria. Consider also the source of study - after fighting so hard to get surgery, I'd be amazed if a larger percentage admitted to feelings of regret. Yet post-op mortality rates are significantly higher - particularly suicide rates - when compared to equivalent age groups in non-transgendered individuals. This suggests that surgery isn't a solution in and of itself.

You also suggest that historically the biggest cause of regret seems to be cosmetic, which is a completely different issue in my view. Yet it also begs the question of whether those who are desirous of surgery wish to alter their gender or wish to improve their looks.



Last edited by adifferentname on 27 Oct 2013, 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Apple_in_my_Eye
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27 Oct 2013, 9:17 pm

Kurgan wrote:
If you take into consideration that the lines for more important surgeries are growing everyday in Europe, funding gender reassignment surgery would be a waste of government resources. I want veeners, so that my teeth will look perfect for the next decade; this does not mean that I'm entitled to veeners.

Transsexuals are fairly rare, and surgery is done commonly for many, many conditions. It's like arguments that NASA (or whatever) costs too much money when it represents 0.3% of the budget.

And, does not having veneers significantly increase the chance that you'll be murdered by a woman (if you're straight) or a phobic cop, or a criminal who knows the police will never believe his victim, or an EMT worker who leaves you to bleed to death? Veneers are no comparison. There are also legal rights that are tied to having the surgery, so it's not always a matter of mere preference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyra_Hunter



Apple_in_my_Eye
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27 Oct 2013, 9:25 pm

beneficii wrote:
Also, I'd argue that in situations where they cannot get treatment in that situation, assistance should be provided so they can get in such a situation. Especially for disabled members of the trans community, which would include those with autism and executive function issues.

Yeah. I think most people don't even know that there's been a ban on the use of any federal funds for any trans-related treatments since the 1970's in the USA. I see people railing against it when it's already illegal, lol.



beneficii
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27 Oct 2013, 9:32 pm

adifferentname wrote:
beneficii wrote:
adifferentname wrote:

Actually, most recent studies show a regret rate of less than 10%, often much less than that. You also have to look at the kind of regret. Complete regret seems to be fairly rare, from what I've read.

This is a good starting point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexua ... ransitions

In the past (like 70s and 80s), regret was much higher, but that was because surgical procedures were of much lower quality back then.


Levels of regret are hardly the best way to gauge success in this instance, especially considering the deep-rooted psychological effects of gender dysphoria. Consider also the source of study - after fighting so hard to get surgery, I'd be amazed if a larger percentage admitted to feelings of regret. Yet post-op mortality rates are significantly higher - particularly suicide rates - when compared to equivalent age groups in non-transgendered individuals. This suggests that surgery isn't a solution in and of itself.

You also suggest that historically the biggest cause of regret seems to be cosmetic, which is a completely different issue in my view. Yet it also begs the question of whether those who are desirous of surgery wish to alter their gender or wish to improve their looks.


Yes, mortality rates are higher still. I'd theorize that that is due to the accumulated psychological damage from gender dysphoria. And many studies do support the importance of counseling along with surgery, though some transsexual people say they don't need it.

It's possible that trans-kids, who are able to transition during puberty and take hormones during that time, end up doing better, provided they can get support, because they would have accumulated less damage. I also remember reading in the American Psychiatric Association's report, released last year, that supported insurance coverage for transition services, that one of the best predictors for psychological functioning is whether the trans person can get family support.



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27 Oct 2013, 9:37 pm

adifferentname wrote:
You also suggest that historically the biggest cause of regret seems to be cosmetic, which is a completely different issue in my view. Yet it also begs the question of whether those who are desirous of surgery wish to alter their gender or wish to improve their looks.

What? Surgery doesn't alter your gender.



adifferentname
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27 Oct 2013, 9:40 pm

I broke the quote train, let me tidy it up :roll:

beneficii wrote:
Yes, mortality rates are higher still. I'd theorize that that is due to the accumulated psychological damage from gender dysphoria. And many studies do support the importance of counseling along with surgery, though some transsexual people say they don't need it.

It's possible that trans-kids, who are able to transition during puberty and take hormones during that time, end up doing better, provided they can get support, because they would have accumulated less damage. I also remember reading in the American Psychiatric Association's report, released last year, that supported insurance coverage for transition services, that one of the best predictors for psychological functioning is whether the trans person can get family support.


That's one interpretation. You might also argue that surgery happens prematurely, that additional time should be taken before surgery is granted. Truly the subject is a complex one, and our understanding is far from perfect. I do sympathise with those who find themselves unable to psychologically coexist with their physical form. One concern that I have is that under current practices, patients are little more than human guinea pigs in a study of gender mutilation therapy.



beneficii
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27 Oct 2013, 9:41 pm

adifferentname wrote:
You also suggest that historically the biggest cause of regret seems to be cosmetic, which is a completely different issue in my view. Yet it also begs the question of whether those who are desirous of surgery wish to alter their gender or wish to improve their looks.


In the cases where it is covered by insurance or a government, treatment of gender dysphoria is the purpose.



Last edited by beneficii on 27 Oct 2013, 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

beneficii
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27 Oct 2013, 9:42 pm

adifferentname wrote:
I broke the quote train, let me tidy it up :roll:

beneficii wrote:
Yes, mortality rates are higher still. I'd theorize that that is due to the accumulated psychological damage from gender dysphoria. And many studies do support the importance of counseling along with surgery, though some transsexual people say they don't need it.

It's possible that trans-kids, who are able to transition during puberty and take hormones during that time, end up doing better, provided they can get support, because they would have accumulated less damage. I also remember reading in the American Psychiatric Association's report, released last year, that supported insurance coverage for transition services, that one of the best predictors for psychological functioning is whether the trans person can get family support.


That's one interpretation. You might also argue that surgery happens prematurely, that additional time should be taken before surgery is granted. Truly the subject is a complex one, and our understanding is far from perfect. I do sympathise with those who find themselves unable to psychologically coexist with their physical form. One concern that I have is that under current practices, patients are little more than human guinea pigs in a study of gender mutilation therapy.


This is not experimental: It has been going on for more than 50 years. We have plenty of data on the results.



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27 Oct 2013, 9:54 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
You also suggest that historically the biggest cause of regret seems to be cosmetic, which is a completely different issue in my view. Yet it also begs the question of whether those who are desirous of surgery wish to alter their gender or wish to improve their looks.

What? Surgery doesn't alter your gender.


And this impacts the desire to do so of those who undergo surgery in what way?



Last edited by adifferentname on 27 Oct 2013, 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.