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gonewild
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30 Oct 2013, 8:24 pm

but I think I must: My mother used to tell me that I was incapable of love, but that this was good, because then I wouldn't have to suffer like she did because of me. I actually believed what she said for most of my life. What was true was that I learned to hate her because of how badly she treated me. She never understood that I tried very hard to love her; it's just that at some point I had to love myself even if she didn't love me, and that meant leaving her behind.



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31 Oct 2013, 1:57 am

When semi-casually explaining that I don't like being touched to a new co-worker, she asked me a very personal question about my sex life with way too much interest



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31 Oct 2013, 2:08 am

gonewild wrote:
As Aspies we expect NT to behave rationally - that is, listen to what someone says and respond in a logical way. That's not what they do. NT life is hierarchical - people are arranged in a pyramid of "value." The typical response of an NT is to either talk down to a "lower" value person or flatter a "higher" value person. Even in a group of more or less "equal" value friends, there is constant conflict over who is "more equal." If this sounds like a middle school lunch room, that's exactly right! Once you volunteer that you are of lower value (admitting to being different, having mental illness, Autism or other "weirdness") an NT will talk down to you and forever think of you as a lower person. They will deny this with many of the things they say, (an obligation in the social rules) which sound complimentary, such as "You must be high functioning" or "Gee, you look normal," but which are truly a put down. It's automatic - NTs follow social rules. Genuine responses, candor, open-mindedness, curiosity and equality are simply not in their rule book. In fact, these attributes are offensive to them.

I think it's a good thing to know for self protection and peace of mind that people like us rank somewhere below pond scum and flesh eating bacteria in the NT hierarchy.


"More equal." George Orwell was right when he wrote Animal Farm. I guess he wasn't just talking about communism, but all of humanity. I guess I should have figured by now that wanting and expecting to be equal doesn't mean that we are. Not to most people anyway.


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31 Oct 2013, 6:46 am

StarTrekker wrote:
"More equal." George Orwell was right when he wrote Animal Farm. I guess he wasn't just talking about communism, but all of humanity. I guess I should have figured by now that wanting and expecting to be equal doesn't mean that we are. Not to most people anyway.

Yes, I figured out the hard way that animal farm is VERY relevant today. I complained when a politician visited my workplace and parked illegally, blocking me in. I complained that nothing was being done and I was told "we can't exactly ticket them or tow them" to which I angrily replied. "WHY THE F*** NOT!" I was so naive back then but now realize politicians, executives are more equal than us.



gonewild
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31 Oct 2013, 10:21 am

The social world is a pyramid, which means the majority of NTs are stuck in "low' in status. On the other hand, as Aspies, we're not really on the pyramid, so I feel free to operate my life as an egalitarian; I take people as they are and judge them on merit and ability and on their behavior toward me. NTs cannot do this; they are trapped in an ugly system of prejudice in which every person has a price tag attached, stating his or her value. In the U.S. everything is about money: if you have it you can get what you want regardless of whether or not you are a criminal or a worthwhile person. A kid who steals a CD from a shop will get slammed. A banker who robs the financial security of millions of people gets rewarded.

I consider myself equal to all humans; I do my best to stay out of the nightmare that is society. Once again, a preference (spending time alone) has been labeled a symptom of a disorder by the social majority, when in my case at least, being happy doing "my own thing" is a rejection of cruelty, inequality and ignorance in the NT world.

I'm old, and have been fighting these battles a long time. The one thing that has brought me peace is the discovery that we must set our own value - never let another person rob you of that.



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31 Oct 2013, 10:33 am

gonewild wrote:
The social world is a pyramid, which means the majority of NTs are stuck in "low' in status. On the other hand, as Aspies, we're not really on the pyramid, so I feel free to operate my life as an egalitarian; I take people as they are and judge them on merit and ability and on their behavior toward me. NTs cannot do this; they are trapped in an ugly system of prejudice in which every person has a price tag attached, stating his or her value. In the U.S. everything is about money: if you have it you can get what you want regardless of whether or not you are a criminal or a worthwhile person. A kid who steals a CD from a shop will get slammed. A banker who robs the financial security of millions of people gets rewarded.

I consider myself equal to all humans; I do my best to stay out of the nightmare that is society. Once again, a preference (spending time alone) has been labeled a symptom of a disorder by the social majority, when in my case at least, being happy doing "my own thing" is a rejection of cruelty, inequality and ignorance in the NT world.

I'm old, and have been fighting these battles a long time. The one thing that has brought me peace is the discovery that we must set our own value - never let another person rob you of that.


That... wow.

Maybe you should write an Aspie Philosophy book. :)



SirReality
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31 Oct 2013, 10:46 am

My absolute favorite is, "You must be VERY high-functioning"--emphasis on the "very."
XD
My co-worker, who is also autistic, told me his response when someone told him that was, "I apologize...I must not be drooling enough," on the premise that the person assumed everyone with autism is mentally retarded.

Nearly 70-80% of individuals with autism do have MR. That is why high-functioning autistic individuals are generally referred to having Asperger's syndrome (although with the new DSM-V, it is now called Autism Spectrum Disorder). Asperger's is under the umbrella of autism, but surprisingly many people have that misconception that all high-functioning autistics have Asperger's syndrome--there's just a lot of overlap. HFA is autism with the lack of mental retardation, and Asperger's syndrome are the characteristics that develop for some individuals who are HFA, but studies are still unclear on that. :scratch:

It seems that the apperception of individuals with autism is that they are on the inside what individual's with Down Syndrome are on the outside--that is, that they're all the same on the inside. Those individuals have similar physical characteristics because of the chromosomal abnormality. Disorganization of the brain, however, is variable, which is why many individuals with autism (high AND low functioning) are different. Not to mention we have different personalities, but god forbid I mention that.

I feel adequate in my social interactions even if it is me "chameleon-ing" my way through them and even if it "undermines" my autism. The internal mechanisms won't go away (so what do I have to prove to anyone?) and I am quite okay with that because my focus is working on my social interactions and study habits (the habits are from becoming fixated on the topic as my husband pointed out >.>). I've come to realize that people don't care where you come from or what you have--they just want to know what you can produce *shrugs* :hmph:



gonewild
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31 Oct 2013, 11:58 am

"Disorganization of the brain" This is difficult; I avoid talking about Autism in general because I don't know much about it. As a high-functioning Asperger I see many flaws in how the brain and behavior are described by professionals. The present early state of research does not support sweeping conclusions that are made about who is "normal or not." You mentioned personalities; I think that personal preferences, based on an atypical brain organization, are being labeled as symptoms of defects in the brain and as mental illnesses, merely because of a fear of people who are different. This is obvious in how NTs have in the past, and still do, actively destroy indigenous peoples and wage war on other religions, cultures and (so-called) races. How is it any different with Aspies? I have been researching how human evolution has been described and interpreted and WOW! - there are many indefensible conclusions made on the entrenched idea that modern male Europeans are the standard of what a human ought to be! Assumptions are made about the brains and behavior of ancestor species based on the totally unscientific presumption that evolution has a specific goal and modern NTs are it!

I do believe that people who display a personality labeled Asperger are mainly being discriminated against because we do not conform to social expectations.



SirReality
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31 Oct 2013, 2:29 pm

I agree that the current research does not provide adequate explanations for specific traits and characteristics for Aspies. I missed the segway on how human evolution ties into it. I've heard both ends (by NT's) that NT's are the "normal" developing people (I mean, look at the label "neurotypical"), and I've heard opposing arguments that Aspergian individuals are the next step in evolution, so I haven't looked into it much about where the current standing is on that. People are people and we adapt to the environment.

And yes, anything that is perceived as abnormal--behaviors, interests, thinking patterns--is viewed as a manifestation of something that is wrong with the brain.

I was only stating that there is a misconception that people have about individuals with autism because of what they read on the internet, or hear someone say in pop culture :\



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31 Oct 2013, 2:58 pm

I haven't been diagnosed formally with anything, but here are some of the responses I've gotten when I've mentioned my suspicions of being on the spectrum:

"You're much too decent of a person."
"You have emotions."
"You seem to manage well, though."

I've also gotten "I knew there was something different about you," and in one case, "I knew that already."



gonewild
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31 Oct 2013, 3:13 pm

Evolution and Aspergers - it's a topic I'm working on. In brief, my current hypothesis is that the brain processing found in Aspies is pre-social, meaning that the NT brain is very new and is the result of two trends: one is the juvenalization of both physical and mental characteristics in modern humans (I did not make this up, it's an actual field of study) which is the result of bipedalism, which forced a pattern of increasingly premature birth, which was then emphasized through sexual selection. And two, the adaptation to domestication and urbanization (approx. 10,000 years ago) that was initiated by climate change. Humans began to live in crowded urban / agricultural environments that demanded an organized and hierarchical social structure - those who were socially responsive and compliant were favored; people who were not were driven out or exterminated.

Modern social humans are arrested at an adolescent developmental stage - dependent on social status and the group, highly emotionally reactive and prone to violence. Aspergers brain organization represents and older type of human that lived in small egalitarian groups with a lifestyle embedded in nature. They possessed acute sensory knowledge of the environment. These early pre-social humans were essentially wild, cunning, intelligent, and successful in their proper environment. The difficulties Aspies encounter in heavily social NT environments are the result of being in the wrong environment - one which literally makes us ill.

I know this sounds shocking and even wacko to Aspies and NTs alike, but I have good evidence that this is a possible scenario.



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31 Oct 2013, 3:48 pm

FishStickNick wrote:
"You're much too decent of a person."
"You have emotions."
"You seem to manage well, though."

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAgRBq2jnz4[/youtube]



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31 Oct 2013, 4:14 pm

Gonewild about has the right of it.

That's really, deeply depressing-- especially since I have a diagnosis and am about to get one for my son, because I see it as our best chance of functioning in NT society (and I have to do that, unless I want to check out and leave my husband and the other 3 kids behind).

I do honestly believe that I will see a time when those with a diagnosis will lose their civil rights and be assigned an "official" lesser standing on the fringe of NT society. In my darker moments, I honestly believe that either I or my children will see the day when we're rounded up and marked, and also forcibly sterilized or killed outright.

I don't think anyone on the outside will stand up for us. I don't even think many of us will stand up for ourselves. It would be futile.

I want to take my child by the hand and walk away into the woods.


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31 Oct 2013, 10:26 pm

What about the neuoromajority people who are kind hearted and treat people equally etc. Are they just better at masking or controlling their natural NT'ness? They are just acting it's all fake?

While I am wholeheartedly agree that my social difficulties in the neuromajority world are the result of differences not disorder if find it hard to describe my executive function as anything else then disorder (bad trait not bad person of course)


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gonewild
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31 Oct 2013, 11:57 pm

Oh dear! I did not mean to upset anyone - you are under a lot of stress right now and what I wrote may sound horrible. My intention was to express that my analysis of how the social world works (however unsettling that knowledge is) has actually freed me from its labels. Why would I look to such a dysfunctional system for guidance on how to live? NTs sacrifice so much of their individuality, choice, curiosity and self expression in order to feel that they "belong" - which is sad, when they already belong to the human species.

I guess that's what the bottom line is: I am human; no one can tell me I'm not. Hang in there - it can get better.



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01 Nov 2013, 1:52 am

Can't stop laughing, oh my God! xD That video is genius.

Yeah, people often tell me things aren't that bad.


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