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Solvejg
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30 Oct 2013, 7:38 am

Kjas wrote:
Shau wrote:
Kjas wrote:
And I wish you luck Shau - but honestly it sounds like a headache waiting to happen at very least when she's already disrespecting you like that.


She's probably used to weak, pliable men. Having the script flipped on her might blow her mind. Regardless, as I said the knowledge and experience alone will be worth it. And besides: Maybe I'm that stalwart guy she never knew she wanted and will change her ways...for love! 8)

yellowtamarin wrote:
This is enlightening. But I might just be misunderstanding what you mean. Anyway, carry on back to the topic :)


So like...

...no fights at all? Can't say I've ever heard of a relationship like that. As far as I know even the good ones that last have a bit of tension at the start while the couple learn each other's quirks.


Ermmmm. The good relationships I had we either didn't fight, or the misunderstandings didn't start happening until the 6-9 month mark. At least. And even then they were resolved without threats or ultimatums in a calm manner.

The other good relationships I have seen have been the same way. First fights or tension doesn't start to happen until the first 6, 9 months has passed or a year.


Mine have always been straight away as i don't put on a happy smile and pretend my feelings are not hurt and i don't wear rose coloured glasses. I accept people how they are but i will talk about and openly discuss things that annoy or irritate me from the get go. I am also very open about my expectations and what i want from the relationship. My boyfriend and i had more disagreements in the first 2 months together then days of the week but we have had no disagreements since at all. We got it all out of our system early and didn't let things fester.

Some things i make very upfront from the start: i do not want to get married, i do not want to be exclusive and i am polyamorous, i do not want children but if my 99.9% contraception somehow fails, i am pro-life and as much as you will be pissed off i will be more upset. It i have a child it is mine and you can opt out and i have no expectations nor want to play happy families, i will be going into my career full force and you can support me or gtfo now, ect ect


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octobertiger
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30 Oct 2013, 7:39 am

Ferrus91 wrote:
octobertiger wrote:
Western society is, in essence, a feminine thing, just by its nature. Trying to fit masculinity into it - even redefining the term so it's more socially acceptable - will leave most men with a choice between readjusting or staying outside of it, a lot of the time.

I don't think it is feminine so much as a sort of repressed masculinity.


What represses men? Western society has to be a factor, as it is female in nature - by generalisation, settled society has to be more feminine than masculine to survive, anyway. This is not ignoring areas of inequality or saying everything's great for women - far from it.

And who brings up boys in western society - women or men? It's usually the women. So, boys generally grow up being clueless about things to do with masculinity, and they won't exactly sit down and discuss things openly with their peers like many young women would do.

Generally women will pass important knowledge onto their daughters. Generally men will not pass knowledge onto their sons. Over time, this knowledge gets eroded, and men get 'wimpier', or have to take man lessons from people looking to line their pockets.

Hence an underlying dating problem - generally, western men complain about quantity of choice, and women complain about the quality of chocie. If you think about what is said above, and throw in media, high expectations, the effect of Disney cartoons...it's no surprise, really.

Repression can be a state of mind, too...



The_Face_of_Boo
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30 Oct 2013, 7:45 am

Relationships with zero conflict/struggle/tension/pitfalls??

On what planet you two live? Get me the shuttle.



Kjas
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30 Oct 2013, 7:53 am

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Mine have always been straight away as i don't put on a happy smile and pretend my feelings are not hurt and i don't wear rose coloured glasses. I accept people how they are but i will talk about and openly discuss things that annoy or irritate me from the get go. I am also very open about my expectations and what i want from the relationship. My boyfriend and i had more disagreements in the first 2 months together then days of the week but we have had no disagreements since at all. We got it all out of our system early and didn't let things fester.

Some things i make very upfront from the start: i do not want to get married, i do not want to be exclusive and i am polyamorous, i do not want children but if my 99.9% contraception somehow fails, i am pro-life and as much as you will be pissed off i will be more upset. It i have a child it is mine and you can opt out and i have no expectations nor want to play happy families, i will be going into my career full force and you can support me or gtfo now, ect ect


I don't p**** foot around either Sol. As soon as it happens I address it right here and hen. The thing is, usually the way I choose to address it would not be by fighting or nagging. I simply set the boundary and make it very clear in a non combative way.

Yes there will be boundary setting, and perhaps even a small misunderstanding or 2. But fights, no. Fights don't usually happen until one person tries to impose their will on the other in a combative way. That's why they can be so destructive and why people often hold grudges over them.

And it's not zero boo, we just deal with them in a different way so they never get to that point. And when they finally do, you know the other person well enough to be able to work through it successfully.

Stalk: no drama relationships are a good thing. With a temper like mine, things evatablity happen in my social life or at work. The relationship is a safe haven where I don't have to worry about more drama.


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Solvejg
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30 Oct 2013, 8:06 am

octobertiger wrote:
Ferrus91 wrote:
octobertiger wrote:
Western society is, in essence, a feminine thing, just by its nature. Trying to fit masculinity into it - even redefining the term so it's more socially acceptable - will leave most men with a choice between readjusting or staying outside of it, a lot of the time.

I don't think it is feminine so much as a sort of repressed masculinity.


What represses men? Western society has to be a factor, as it is female in nature - by generalisation, settled society has to be more feminine than masculine to survive, anyway. This is not ignoring areas of inequality or saying everything's great for women - far from it.

And who brings up boys in western society - women or men? It's usually the women. So, boys generally grow up being clueless about things to do with masculinity, and they won't exactly sit down and discuss things openly with their peers like many young women would do.

Generally women will pass important knowledge onto their daughters. Generally men will not pass knowledge onto their sons. Over time, this knowledge gets eroded, and men get 'wimpier', or have to take man lessons from people looking to line their pockets.

Hence an underlying dating problem - generally, western men complain about quantity of choice, and women complain about the quality of chocie. If you think about what is said above, and throw in media, high expectations, the effect of Disney cartoons...it's no surprise, really.

Repression can be a state of mind, too...


So much is wrong with this. :?

I am a mother of a boy and a girl and guess what? I raise them the same. They both have exactly the same oppurtunities in life and can develop their own interests and likes and friendship groups as they see fit. Everybody can be happy in their lives by just being themselves and not pretending to be anything but that. My son and daughter can always talk to me about anything and they will always be treated the same.

I would prefer my son and daughter be happy within themselves and alone then have to change for a partner because they are not good enough how they are.

Also 95% of my friends are men and men discuss life choices with each other and get advice. They just dont take hours aganising over every detail and constantly backtrack. They give their advice and move on.

These are all things we need to adress with 4th wave feminism.


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30 Oct 2013, 8:16 am

So much is wrong with this - Do you mean the post, or the bringing up of boys? If it's the post, I'd be very happy to be wrong!

As I am sure that you appreciate - not everybody raises children the same way as you. Also, I would guess that you share a lot of values with your friends. I'm not talking about the intelligent equality-driven minorities, and you could well come from a different culture than the UK.

If you work with a lot of children, from different social groups, you will see the point I am making. It's there.

When's this fourth wave going to hit? Who is going to listen?



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30 Oct 2013, 8:52 am

Solvejg wrote:
Mine have always been straight away as i don't put on a happy smile and pretend my feelings are not hurt and i don't wear rose coloured glasses. I accept people how they are but i will talk about and openly discuss things that annoy or irritate me from the get go. I am also very open about my expectations and what i want from the relationship. My boyfriend and i had more disagreements in the first 2 months together then days of the week but we have had no disagreements since at all. We got it all out of our system early and didn't let things fester.

Some things i make very upfront from the start: i do not want to get married, i do not want to be exclusive and i am polyamorous, i do not want children but if my 99.9% contraception somehow fails, i am pro-life and as much as you will be pissed off i will be more upset. It i have a child it is mine and you can opt out and i have no expectations nor want to play happy families, i will be going into my career full force and you can support me or gtfo now, ect ect

Solvejg is an interesting person. :scratch:

Kjas wrote:
Stalk: no drama relationships are a good thing. With a temper like mine, things evatablity happen in my social life or at work. The relationship is a safe haven where I don't have to worry about more drama.

I guess I must be bored at work, because I am always the s*** stirrer. I do it everywhere, I think. How can one just be, like, communicating and be happy all the time, it feels wrong to me. Where is the passion and emotional flare etc? I don't do it often btw.



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30 Oct 2013, 9:13 am

women can be pretty masculine. just look at serena williams



The_Face_of_Boo
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30 Oct 2013, 9:13 am

octobertiger wrote:
Ferrus91 wrote:
octobertiger wrote:
Western society is, in essence, a feminine thing, just by its nature. Trying to fit masculinity into it - even redefining the term so it's more socially acceptable - will leave most men with a choice between readjusting or staying outside of it, a lot of the time.

I don't think it is feminine so much as a sort of repressed masculinity.


What represses men? Western society has to be a factor, as it is female in nature - by generalisation, settled society has to be more feminine than masculine to survive, anyway. This is not ignoring areas of inequality or saying everything's great for women - far from it.

And who brings up boys in western society - women or men? It's usually the women. So, boys generally grow up being clueless about things to do with masculinity, and they won't exactly sit down and discuss things openly with their peers like many young women would do.

Generally women will pass important knowledge onto their daughters. Generally men will not pass knowledge onto their sons. Over time, this knowledge gets eroded, and men get 'wimpier', or have to take man lessons from people looking to line their pockets.

Hence an underlying dating problem - generally, western men complain about quantity of choice, and women complain about the quality of chocie. If you think about what is said above, and throw in media, high expectations, the effect of Disney cartoons...it's no surprise, really.

Repression can be a state of mind, too...


By saying the Western culture is "female", do you mean the 'opposite' culture, the Eastern, is "Male"?
Because whar you've described above applies exactly on Eastern culture as well.



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30 Oct 2013, 9:26 am

Shau, It sounds to me that you have a pretty good grasp on how to treat and handle this relationship. That shows a lot of maturity. You should be proud.

Cultural differences can be hard to overcome sometimes. You both need to be willing to at least try to accomidate each other. You should encourage fairly regular open and honest dialogues with her. It'll help you both realize fairly quick if this is something worth pursuing.



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30 Oct 2013, 9:30 am

is Solvejg a mother or someone who doesn't want children?

I have lost the plot..as so often happens.

The only thing I know is that people are different. When I was little I wanted all the borders to disappear because I thought everyone would be happy because that was what makes me happy. As I grew up I found people are not like me. They are not like eachother either. The BIOS is the same but from there on everything differs. Operating system, software, style, peripherals..you name it.. is why each one of us is unique. So it's daft to approach life with the attitude of 'right, this is how women are and this is how men are and this is a lever I can pull to get this result' - as much as HFA spectrum people would love this type of manual, it doesn't exist, you have to build one for each person you meet and the cheat codes are not always reliable.

There. I said my peace. Perhaps without making much sense but whatever.

I am sort of considering this blindness issue and the fact that a lot of my female friends have told me that the man's appearance plays secondary influence in their attraction and ..well they don't call it a male brain for nothing.. I cannot feel attracted to someone unless I am visually attracted to someone. If they have the most beautiful soul or brain then I will hope to be their friend but there is just no way that I could ever fall for someone without seeing them.

If I talk to certain people online who I may like the sound of, I will think to myself 'I really hope you are hot otherwise this is a pitiful waste of everyone's time'. Does this mean I am shallow? :scratch:



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30 Oct 2013, 9:33 am

Solveg, you are driving me nuts!

Earlier in the thread you were generalizing women's behaviour and quite deliberately setting yourself as outside of being a woman, in a nutshell you claimed you're not a nit-picky gossip but that most women are, while most men aren't. Then most recently you complained about someone who was generalizing about how women raise kids, and suddenly you attach yourself to the subgroup of being a woman while you fight against generalizations about how mother's raise kids. (Which itself is also rather funny, because you're not even countering what octobertiger was saying but are presenting it as if you were.)

Also, it's despicable to me that if you have a child with someone, it's yours alone to raise, as if the father didn't have anything to do with it and has no rights with his own kid. That's awful.


I agree to something said much earlier in this thread, about men only acting hyper-masculine around other men. Whether or not it's true, my NT husband, for instance, feels this very strongly. He will also tell me he acts differently with a group of men and I've actually seen him act differently solely with groups of men if when I'm being ignored socially. I'd like to elaborate and say this applies to women too. Women will act differently within a group of other women than they will in a mixed group.

Obviously in the OP's case, this woman is perpetuating a male stereotype. It might purely just be a sexual attraction thing, but I suspect it runs a lot deeper than that.

octobertiger: I actually rather think that there's been a surge in promoting stereotypical masculine behaviours, and I think this itself is almost a rebound to the feminist movements that is making it OK for women to have 'masculine' traits. If women can now do manly things, in order for a man to not be a women they need to push themselves deeper into masculinity.

I should really just shut my big mouth though, even talking about characteristics as masculine or feminine is promoting the stereotypes as far as I'm concerned. I don't like being shoved into a group and stamped with a label as much as the next person which clouds perceptions as to how an individual really's like.


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cavernio
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30 Oct 2013, 9:39 am

Solvejg wrote:
Women tend to want to have a set of rules in their minds that follow a certain pattern. Anyone or anything that deviates from this is seen not as a something differant and unique but as something that may prove them wrong and needs to be brought down.

Personally i don't feed into gender stereotypes


This is the sort of thing I'm talking about solvejg. Maybe the 1st thought isn't a typical gender stereotype, but it most definitely IS a stereotype.


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30 Oct 2013, 9:42 am

cavernio wrote:
I should really just shut my big mouth though, even talking about characteristics as masculine or feminine is promoting the stereotypes as far as I'm concerned. I don't like being shoved into a group and stamped with a label as much as the next person which clouds perceptions as to how an individual really's like.


BEING YOURSELF AND BEING CONSIDERED DESIRABLE TO WOMEN FOR IT IS SURE NICE, HUH. As it were, though, that attitude starts to fail people when they're staring virginity right in the face on their 26th birthday and contemplating whether or not they're going to die alone.

Grumble grumble grumble...



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30 Oct 2013, 10:04 am

Solvejg wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Solvejg wrote:
Women tend to want to have a set of rules in their minds that follow a certain pattern. Anyone or anything that deviates from this is seen not as a something differant and unique but as something that may prove them wrong and needs to be brought down.


I really do find the exact opposite- the posturing that occurs in all male spaces involves hypermasculine behavior that most men would never actually display around women, and that speaks to horizontal enforcement of gendered norms as induced by competition, either natural or culturally-created. The gendered nature of homophobia is another example.


i have never seen this hypermasculine behaviour you talk of. I also think you can not fully weigh in on what i am saying until you are taller then men, display predominantly male hobbies and lifestyle choices and dress in a stereotypical male way like i do. I deliberate left out that i am generally in the cusp area of transman/ tomboy/ gender neutral territory as i don't see the relevance of sexuality and gender ideology in this conversation.

I have never ever had a negitive comment about my interests/ dress style/ height/ relationship philosophies from men except that i am cool. I however receive multiple negative comments from women every day about my lifestyle.


zomg how can you NOT see the relevance of your gender identity and sexuality on this conversation when YOUR stance is 'Welp, you're not my gender with my height, so you will never be able to understand what I'm getting at.'

Furthermore, you are confounding one variable with another. That you feel that women pressure you doesn't apply to the idea that men pressure other men. Just because men don't pressure YOU isn't the same as a man not feeling pressured by another man. You aren't asexual. Tomboy or no, men will still treat you as a woman. Transgendered people are never really in some sort of 'cusp' area at all, quite the opposite. They strongly feel that they are the sex they are not; it's the opposite of feeling gender neutral.


Solvejg wrote:
Anyone who has any qualm's about what i have said, go look at a few car/ weighlifting/ adult forums and compare with mothering/ childraising/ crafty forums and you will see a strong difference.


So the assumption you're making is that men don't go to childraising forums? Oh wait, you don't let your kids' fathers have a role in their life, of course men don't look into raising children from your perspective.
Importantly though, the only fair comparison between your 'masculine' vs 'feminine' forums would be a craft forum to a car or weightlifting forum. How to raise a person isn't on par with a hobby. People, men and women, are going to be a lot more adamant when it comes down to people that will no doubt go against their personal morals...much like I'm acting towards your view that men don't have the right to their kids. Something like how to do a craft or fix a car though, those activities don't have nearly the emotional significance that raising a kid has.

/frustration


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30 Oct 2013, 10:06 am

Enh it's worse than you think shau, I'm a heterosexual woman...sorry I guess

*trying really hard to not sound ironic*
Happy Birthday!


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Last edited by cavernio on 30 Oct 2013, 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.