Why Don't Liberals Move to Europe? (Or North Korea?)

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Tequila
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16 Nov 2013, 4:10 am

zacb wrote:
If it is so great over there, why don't liberals move there? They always talk about Libertarians moving to Somalia, then why don't they practice what they preach? Maybe we should book a free one way ticket to NK or Europe. Write it off as welfare, although it will help us in the long run :D .


Erm, there is a lot of public sentiment across Europe (and relatively new parties that represent that sentiment) against foreigners simply turning up and claiming benefits.



zacb
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16 Nov 2013, 8:23 am

VIDEODROME wrote:
How about Canada?


I would say with the exception of NHS and hate crimes laws, it is actually somewhat conservative. Nice place to visit.



zacb
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16 Nov 2013, 8:26 am

Tequila wrote:
zacb wrote:
If it is so great over there, why don't liberals move there? They always talk about Libertarians moving to Somalia, then why don't they practice what they preach? Maybe we should book a free one way ticket to NK or Europe. Write it off as welfare, although it will help us in the long run :D .


Erm, there is a lot of public sentiment across Europe (and relatively new parties that represent that sentiment) against foreigners simply turning up and claiming benefits.
Isn't the UK liberal in it's immigration?



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16 Nov 2013, 9:43 am

France!


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16 Nov 2013, 10:09 am

VIDEODROME wrote:
So how is it many European countries are stuck with many Muslim immigrants while American have such a hard time moving there?


Its a hangover of our colonial past.

In the UK, most muslim immigrants are Pakistani with heritage dating back to the times of the British Raj.


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thomas81
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16 Nov 2013, 10:10 am

zacb wrote:
Isn't the UK liberal in it's immigration?


Not anymore at least.

If you want to marry a foreigner from outside the EU (in the UK), you need a salary of about $40 000 PA. This is why I get pissed off when right wing gobshites and barstool pundits talk about us being a 'soft touch' on immigration. My wife had to pay £750 to enter the country, and another £2000 just for the privilege of remaining here. We were lucky though that we got married under a Labour government. Nowadays the costs would be untenable.


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thomas81
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16 Nov 2013, 10:22 am

Tequila wrote:
Watched that documentary on the DPRK last might.

It appears that a lot more information is getting in, more people than before have access to media, and the peasants are a lot less observant and unquestioning than they used to be.

How awful. What a shame for fat boy.


You do realise, that it could be awful for the people because it means that the government will become even more hardline and draconian than ever before.


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zacb
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16 Nov 2013, 2:54 pm

thomas81 wrote:
zacb wrote:
Isn't the UK liberal in it's immigration?


Not anymore at least.

If you want to marry a foreigner from outside the EU (in the UK), you need a salary of about $40 000 PA. This is why I get pissed off when right wing gobshites and barstool pundits talk about us being a 'soft touch' on immigration. My wife had to pay £750 to enter the country, and another £2000 just for the privilege of remaining here. We were lucky though that we got married under a Labour government. Nowadays the costs would be untenable.


I see. It seems like many people abroad that I talk to want to go to the UK (Indonisia and Mexico), so maybe that common wealth relapse also attracts others, but they actually can't get in. I do think that immigration needs to be more liberal (in the US and UK), but they should work from the bottom in terms of benefits (social security). But otherwise I am all for immigration. Off topic XD .



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16 Nov 2013, 5:33 pm

zacb wrote:
VIDEODROME wrote:
How about Canada?


I would say with the exception of NHS and hate crimes laws, it is actually somewhat conservative. Nice place to visit.


Yeah, rent controls in many cities, government-run car insurance in most western provinces, unionization rates around 30%, quota systems for dairy farmers, and same-sex marriages are quite conservative.


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zacb
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16 Nov 2013, 6:27 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
zacb wrote:
VIDEODROME wrote:
How about Canada?


I would say with the exception of NHS and hate crimes laws, it is actually somewhat conservative. Nice place to visit.


Yeah, rent controls in many cities, government-run car insurance in most western provinces, unionization rates around 30%, quota systems for dairy farmers, and same-sex marriages are quite conservative.


Well, the US has rent controls as well. Did not know are the car insurance bit. Same sex marriage is ehish. Quotas are not any worse than the US and it's farm bills. Unionization does not necessarily mean not conservative. But taking those together, with the exception of the insurance companies, that is not any more conservative than the US (also with the exception of the gay marriage, then again I don't worry too much about that.) Interesting with the insurance companies.



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16 Nov 2013, 6:29 pm

zacb wrote:
Tequila wrote:
zacb wrote:
If it is so great over there, why don't liberals move there? They always talk about Libertarians moving to Somalia, then why don't they practice what they preach? Maybe we should book a free one way ticket to NK or Europe. Write it off as welfare, although it will help us in the long run :D .


Erm, there is a lot of public sentiment across Europe (and relatively new parties that represent that sentiment) against foreigners simply turning up and claiming benefits.
Isn't the UK liberal in it's immigration?

We allow immigrants to come here if they benefit us- and the vast majority do.

We don't allow people to come here and live off our public services. Much of our country is irrationally xenophobic. The mainstream parties pander to that. A lot of falsehoods are spread about foreigners which only make it harder for them to gain acceptance.

So no, we're not "liberal in our immigration". We're deeply conservative.



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16 Nov 2013, 6:40 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
zacb wrote:
Tequila wrote:
zacb wrote:
If it is so great over there, why don't liberals move there? They always talk about Libertarians moving to Somalia, then why don't they practice what they preach? Maybe we should book a free one way ticket to NK or Europe. Write it off as welfare, although it will help us in the long run :D .


Erm, there is a lot of public sentiment across Europe (and relatively new parties that represent that sentiment) against foreigners simply turning up and claiming benefits.
Isn't the UK liberal in it's immigration?

We allow immigrants to come here if they benefit us- and the vast majority do.

We don't allow people to come here and live off our public services. Much of our country is irrationally xenophobic. The mainstream parties pander to that. A lot of falsehoods are spread about foreigners which only make it harder for them to gain acceptance.

So no, we're not "liberal in our immigration". We're deeply conservative.


I see. I hear a lot of Gumby like individuals bitching about free housing. But then again they are part of the Common Wealth, so that adds a new dimension to it. Who do you think has the most liberal immigration? I hear that a lot of EU countries have amnesty every so often, but is this still the case?



Tequila
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16 Nov 2013, 6:41 pm

zacb wrote:
Isn't the UK liberal in it's immigration?


That depends on who you are.

thomas81 wrote:
In the UK, most muslim immigrants are Pakistani with heritage dating back to the times of the British Raj.


Wrong. They started arriving well after Pakistani independence, and hundreds of thousands of them have continued arriving long after the original reason for their coming here disappeared. They come from tribal parts of Pakistan so backward (the vast majority of UK Pakistanis are from war-torn Kashmir) that even other Pakistanis look down on them.

thomas81 wrote:
You do realise, that it could be awful for the people because it means that the government will become even more hardline and draconian than ever before.


People inside the country will challenge the regime more and more if that happens. Depending on how events turn out, it could be very, very nasty but it could also not be. Soldiers may well disobey orders en masse. Anything could happen.

There is too much information inside the country - it's not like the old days. The country is run by a despot so annoying and spoilt that he deserves to be periodically hit on the back of his head with a table leg by random people in every day life.

They want greater freedom. They are curious about the outside world. And why shouldn't they be?

North Korea will fall eventually. The country is absolutely miserable. You might want to defend the DPRK but increasingly their people don't.



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16 Nov 2013, 7:19 pm

Tequila wrote:

Wrong. They started arriving well after Pakistani independence, and hundreds of thousands of them have continued arriving long after the original reason for their coming here disappeared. They come from tribal parts of Pakistan so backward (the vast majority of UK Pakistanis are from war-torn Kashmir) that even other Pakistanis look down on them.


I'm talking about heritage.

ie. They are able to claim residency in the UK on the grounds that their fathers or grandfathers were around during British times.

Tequila wrote:


People inside the country will challenge the regime more and more if that happens. Depending on how events turn out, it could be very, very nasty but it could also not be. Soldiers may well disobey orders en masse. Anything could happen.

There is too much information inside the country - it's not like the old days. The country is run by a despot so annoying and spoilt that he deserves to be periodically hit on the back of his head with a table leg by random people in every day life.

They want greater freedom. They are curious about the outside world. And why shouldn't they be?

North Korea will fall eventually. The country is absolutely miserable. You might want to defend the DPRK but increasingly their people don't.


The thing about North Korea, their social structure is rather different to the Soviet Union, East Germany or Caeucescu's Romania. There is elite layers of businesspeople and intellectuals within the urban communities with much to lose. That includes many within the military who are close to the inner circle. People in NK are treated better according how close they are to the central Government. I'm not sure if other Stalinist countries looked after its elites to such an extent.

As for North Korea 'falling' the question is what to replace it with? Seoul isn't interested in reunification because it will have to contend with the hungry mouths and China isn't interested in annexation for the same reasons. At the same time, a more liberal government will open the floodgates for the flight of countless people which will lead to disaster for those that cant leave for whatever reason (The ROK doesnt want them and China is repatriating emigrants, a change in government will not alter that). In a perverse way the Juche government is the only thing preventing things getting even worse for the people living there,


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16 Nov 2013, 7:52 pm

zacb wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
zacb wrote:
Tequila wrote:
zacb wrote:
If it is so great over there, why don't liberals move there? They always talk about Libertarians moving to Somalia, then why don't they practice what they preach? Maybe we should book a free one way ticket to NK or Europe. Write it off as welfare, although it will help us in the long run :D .


Erm, there is a lot of public sentiment across Europe (and relatively new parties that represent that sentiment) against foreigners simply turning up and claiming benefits.
Isn't the UK liberal in it's immigration?

We allow immigrants to come here if they benefit us- and the vast majority do.

We don't allow people to come here and live off our public services. Much of our country is irrationally xenophobic. The mainstream parties pander to that. A lot of falsehoods are spread about foreigners which only make it harder for them to gain acceptance.

So no, we're not "liberal in our immigration". We're deeply conservative.


I see. I hear a lot of Gumby like individuals bitching about free housing. But then again they are part of the Common Wealth, so that adds a new dimension to it. Who do you think has the most liberal immigration? I hear that a lot of EU countries have amnesty every so often, but is this still the case?


While New York has rent controls as do other cities, my understanding is that most American cities with rent controls are megalopolises, whereas rent controls are applied to small cities and towns in Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_auto_insurance


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zacb
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16 Nov 2013, 8:45 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
zacb wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
zacb wrote:
Tequila wrote:
zacb wrote:
If it is so great over there, why don't liberals move there? They always talk about Libertarians moving to Somalia, then why don't they practice what they preach? Maybe we should book a free one way ticket to NK or Europe. Write it off as welfare, although it will help us in the long run :D .


Erm, there is a lot of public sentiment across Europe (and relatively new parties that represent that sentiment) against foreigners simply turning up and claiming benefits.
Isn't the UK liberal in it's immigration?

We allow immigrants to come here if they benefit us- and the vast majority do.

We don't allow people to come here and live off our public services. Much of our country is irrationally xenophobic. The mainstream parties pander to that. A lot of falsehoods are spread about foreigners which only make it harder for them to gain acceptance.

So no, we're not "liberal in our immigration". We're deeply conservative.


I see. I hear a lot of Gumby like individuals bitching about free housing. But then again they are part of the Common Wealth, so that adds a new dimension to it. Who do you think has the most liberal immigration? I hear that a lot of EU countries have amnesty every so often, but is this still the case?


While New York has rent controls as do other cities, my understanding is that most American cities with rent controls are megalopolises, whereas rent controls are applied to small cities and towns in Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_auto_insurance


This is true. but wasn't the West typically more liberal?