Do you think abortion is wrong?

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That is not a universally accepted fact. In fact most anti-abortion people are also anti-birth control.

Birth Control

In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Birth Control - Catholic Answers

If simply taken from the mother, yes they will die. I don't see people taking unborn babies and caring for them. An abortion is more like taking the born baby and just dropping it somewhere or shooting it than taking a baby and putting it in a place where it will be cared for.

And this is the problem. You assume that you're right and that everyone agrees with you that an unborn baby is part of a woman. You're refusing to acknowledge the actual stance of people who disagree with you. Sure, maybe they're wrong, but that doesn't mean you can make stuff up about their beliefs and then blast them for it. They view abortion as simply murder, thus it is not an uncalled for invasion of personal space to restrict it.

And for the record, I do believe the government should have something in place for mothers to deal with unwanted children.

I agree, it's problematic to oppose any form of birth control as well as abortion.
Are you sure most anti-abortion people are Catholic? Even so, what makes them all agree with the church's official stance? According to a survey I could not relocate, 78% of Catholics opposed the church's stance on contraception and a majority of Catholics (only 3% less than the nonreligious) in America support contraception coverage in employer health care plans (http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... o6KcOI1_4Y).

Anyone who believes abortion is murder is free to never have one. The choice is with the woman who is pregnant and no one else.

So if someone believes murder is acceptable, they're free to do that? Of course someone who believes abortion is murder is going to try to prevent it. It would be ridiculous not to.

1. I'm not refusing to acknowledge any such thing.

2. You are refusing to acknowledge that you don't really want a smaller government or a government that stays out of peoples personal lives. You want a government so big and so massive that it can control every single little thing in people's personal lives, right down to their reproductive systems.

It seems as if you refuse to acknowledge that pro-life people believe abortion is murder of a separate person when you just keep asserting the fact that a woman has the right to do as she pleases with her own body. You would agree that people should be denied the right to kill others, and from the pro-life standpoint, this is no different. Instead of opposing murder, you say the pro-life people just want to increase government control. And how you get from denying women the right to kill their kids (in the pro-life mind) to building a massive government to control the minutia of people's lives is beyond me.

You can't use the women's rights argument until you establish that an unborn human is not actually a person with a right to life and is part of the mother. And since their is no widely accepted definition of personhood, arguing over abortion is completely futile.

My main intent on this thread was not to prove that abortion is wrong, although I think it is. I'm simply trying to say that many posters here are completely ignoring the facts of the pro-life movement and trying to discredit it by massively exaggerating and misinterpreting its stance and then assaulting the character of pro-life supporters, rather than proving their arguments wrong.

Last edited by UndeadToaster on 21 Nov 2013, 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think an illogical reason is getting pregnant just to have an abortion, which I know is rare. I'm both pro-choice and pro-life, leaning more towards the former, depending on the scenario.

Yes, I can. It is in side a woman's body. That makes it her business, and no one else's. Stop interfering in other people's personal lives, and in their reproductive systems. You said you want the government to stay out of people's personal lives, then you stay out of other people's personal lives too, and out of their bodies.

Yes, I can. It is in side a woman's body. That makes it her business, and no one else's. Stop interfering in other people's personal lives, and in their reproductive systems. You said you want the government to stay out of people's personal lives, then you stay out of other people's personal lives too, and out of their bodies.

I still say that pregnancy is an attack on a woman's body and she has a right to defend herself.

They can only prevent it if they are the one pregnant. Otherwise, it falls under the category of none of their business.

Telling women and their doctors what procedures they can and cannot agree to is the antithesis of a small government.

When an actual artificial uterus is invented, we can revisit the topic. Until then, a zef is dependent on a specific woman, and a baby is not.


And there's the expectation that a combination of egg and sperm, put into a petri dish together, will eventually form a zygote. You have to look at what is, not what might be. Eggs are not sacred, and neither are sperm, regardless of their potential.

a human being can be completely dependent on something; they just can't be completely dependent on another human being without the second one's permission.

I strongly doubt that many women have abortions for reasons that they do not think are 'legitimate and logical.' It costs a lot of money, and from what I hear it's, at the easiest, like a really bad case of menstrual cramps. Considering that menstrual cramps by themselves can be so bad that women vomit from the pain and are effectively debilitated for a day or two, I don't think that this is something that a sane woman would do just for kicks.

The sad thing is, I think he really truly can't see how hypocritical it is, to claim to support small government, and keeping the government out of peoples personal lives, while at the same time advocating the government intervening in women's personal healthcare choices.

LKL, you have a point. I mentioned earlier that I'm generally pro-choice, but a little pro-life. My mom miscarried before I was born (which they don't know I know).

And I think both of you truly aren't understanding what I'm trying to say. I never said I personally supported small government, for one thing and I agreed that we need more in place to help mothers with unwanted pregnancies.
I'm saying that murder is not a personal healthcare choice. If the women wanted to kill herself, that's personal, if she wants to kill her kid, its not. Maybe I'm wrong that an unborn baby is not worthy of personhood and is part of the mother's body. However, I do believe they are separate, and for that reason, I am not supporting government intervention in women's personal healthcare choices. Accusing pro-life supporters of trying to deny rights to women is the equivalent of us calling you murderers, neither of which are true.