autistic 19 year old charged with murdering his mother

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Thelibrarian
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02 Dec 2013, 11:56 am

CharityFunDay wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:

Death toll at Sandy Hook due to lack of gun control: 28

Death toll in China due to gun control: 60 million.


Oh do come off it. You reckon that without gun control, the Chinese would have mounted armed resistance? I think this is a somewhat .... naïve viewpoint.


How is it "naive" to think that a sane human being would defend himself against somebody trying to murder him? Would you defend yourself against somebody trying to murder you?



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02 Dec 2013, 12:01 pm

That's not the question.



Thelibrarian
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02 Dec 2013, 12:03 pm

CharityFunDay wrote:
That's not the question.


Why don't you answer it, and then I will entertain any question you care to ask me?

Would you defend yourself against somebody trying to murder you? And if you give the sane answer of "yes", then why would it be unreasonable for the Chinese to do the same?



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02 Dec 2013, 12:06 pm

I read that only 3% of autistic people are violent which is a relief but it always seems like every autistic person is violent because it's all over the internet and I get so sick of hearing these stories about an autistic person having violent outbursts, violent meltdowns. etc. and why don't parents ever mention how gentle their autistic child is and how none violent they are. Even members here have admitted to their violence and my mom would have sent me away if I were that violent. It just makes it all look like we're all dangerous people and will hurt anyone if we get upset or don't get our way, etc. Then a few cases like this is rare because I don't often hear about autistic people killing someone or using dangerous weapons such as a knife (you can kill someone with a butter knife but some said it was a butcher knife he had) that got that one aspie teen shot in Chicago and my husband even told me he wanted to know what AS was to make sure I wouldn't be chasing him with a knife and bam this happened four years later, I think it was 2011 when it happened. And there I was laughing about my husband's crazy thought about AS because what made him think is was some psychotic psychopathic condition and his defense was he didn't know what it was. Then don't forget that when a shooting happens, autism gets mentioned and thank goodness it never got mentioned when the mall shooting happened here around the same time the Sandy shooting happened. Then of course I knew a violent aspie kid but he had something else besides AS and it was ODD and a few people have told me he may have had conduct disorder and I think his main issue was ODD than AS because ODD affected him more and caused him the most problems. I would be so happy if I heard he was in prison now and would probably laugh if he was on death row and even though I am against capital punishment, in this case, I wouldn't care. Sometimes I think all violent people should be shot.


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02 Dec 2013, 12:23 pm

League_Girl wrote:
I read that only 3% of autistic people are violent which is a relief but it always seems like every autistic person is violent because it's all over the internet and I get so sick of hearing these stories about an autistic person having violent outbursts, violent meltdowns. etc. and why don't parents ever mention how gentle their autistic child is and how none violent they are. Even members here have admitted to their violence and my mom would have sent me away if I were that violent. It just makes it all look like we're all dangerous people and will hurt anyone if we get upset or don't get our way, etc. Then a few cases like this is rare because I don't often hear about autistic people killing someone or using dangerous weapons such as a knife (you can kill someone with a butter knife but some said it was a butcher knife he had) that got that one aspie teen shot in Chicago and my husband even told me he wanted to know what AS was to make sure I wouldn't be chasing him with a knife and bam this happened four years later, I think it was 2011 when it happened. And there I was laughing about my husband's crazy thought about AS because what made him think is was some psychotic psychopathic condition and his defense was he didn't know what it was. Then don't forget that when a shooting happens, autism gets mentioned and thank goodness it never got mentioned when the mall shooting happened here around the same time the Sandy shooting happened. Then of course I knew a violent aspie kid but he had something else besides AS and it was ODD and a few people have told me he may have had conduct disorder and I think his main issue was ODD than AS because ODD affected him more and caused him the most problems. I would be so happy if I heard he was in prison now and would probably laugh if he was on death row and even though I am against capital punishment, in this case, I wouldn't care. Sometimes I think all violent people should be shot.


League, out of curiosity, has anybody ever considered you violent, or been afraid of you, because of your autism? As for me, the answer is no.

I would also agree that capital punishment--or violent people being shot--is not always a bad idea. Whether capital punishment serves as a deterrent is open to debate. What is not open to debate is that the executed person will never harm another innocent again. And, as has been pointed out already on this thread, aspies are much more likely to be victims of violence than its perpetrators. We don't deserve that.



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02 Dec 2013, 1:11 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
Opi wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Opi wrote:
am i the only person who is disturbed that we have been presented by no evidence, no formal assessment of the young man's mental state at the proposed time of crime, nor has there been due process of law, yet we here all assume the young man's guilt? is this how justice works in america now? conviction in the court of public opinion?

frankly i find this whole thread disturbing and sensationalistic.


We are going by a newspaper article here rather than legal documents. They are two very different things. You can also bet the farm that there is evidence, and there will likely be a formal assessment of the perp's mental state. As far as being tried in the court of public opinion, the court of public opinion and the legal courts are two entirely different things. It really doesn't matter to the perp what we think; it matters a great deal what the courts think, though I certainly do appreciate your concern with the presumption of innocence. I do think it is important to remember the victim had the same rights as the perp--rights that were obviously violated in the worst manner possible.


i just think its f**** up how quickly people are to assume that because someone has been charged with a crime, they are automatically guilty of that crime. it's not just here - it's popular culture.


Out of curiosity, do you think he is innocent in that he did not commit this crime?


i don't have an *opinion* because there has been no *trial* and all the evidence has not been *presented.*


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Thelibrarian
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02 Dec 2013, 1:13 pm

Opi wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Opi wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Opi wrote:
am i the only person who is disturbed that we have been presented by no evidence, no formal assessment of the young man's mental state at the proposed time of crime, nor has there been due process of law, yet we here all assume the young man's guilt? is this how justice works in america now? conviction in the court of public opinion?

frankly i find this whole thread disturbing and sensationalistic.


We are going by a newspaper article here rather than legal documents. They are two very different things. You can also bet the farm that there is evidence, and there will likely be a formal assessment of the perp's mental state. As far as being tried in the court of public opinion, the court of public opinion and the legal courts are two entirely different things. It really doesn't matter to the perp what we think; it matters a great deal what the courts think, though I certainly do appreciate your concern with the presumption of innocence. I do think it is important to remember the victim had the same rights as the perp--rights that were obviously violated in the worst manner possible.


i just think its f**** up how quickly people are to assume that because someone has been charged with a crime, they are automatically guilty of that crime. it's not just here - it's popular culture.


Out of curiosity, do you think he is innocent in that he did not commit this crime?


i don't have an *opinion* because there has been no *trial* and all the evidence has not been *presented.*


Opi, fair enough. According others the benefit of any doubt is certainly not a trait to be criticized.



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02 Dec 2013, 5:27 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
I read that only 3% of autistic people are violent which is a relief but it always seems like every autistic person is violent because it's all over the internet and I get so sick of hearing these stories about an autistic person having violent outbursts, violent meltdowns. etc. and why don't parents ever mention how gentle their autistic child is and how none violent they are. Even members here have admitted to their violence and my mom would have sent me away if I were that violent. It just makes it all look like we're all dangerous people and will hurt anyone if we get upset or don't get our way, etc. Then a few cases like this is rare because I don't often hear about autistic people killing someone or using dangerous weapons such as a knife (you can kill someone with a butter knife but some said it was a butcher knife he had) that got that one aspie teen shot in Chicago and my husband even told me he wanted to know what AS was to make sure I wouldn't be chasing him with a knife and bam this happened four years later, I think it was 2011 when it happened. And there I was laughing about my husband's crazy thought about AS because what made him think is was some psychotic psychopathic condition and his defense was he didn't know what it was. Then don't forget that when a shooting happens, autism gets mentioned and thank goodness it never got mentioned when the mall shooting happened here around the same time the Sandy shooting happened. Then of course I knew a violent aspie kid but he had something else besides AS and it was ODD and a few people have told me he may have had conduct disorder and I think his main issue was ODD than AS because ODD affected him more and caused him the most problems. I would be so happy if I heard he was in prison now and would probably laugh if he was on death row and even though I am against capital punishment, in this case, I wouldn't care. Sometimes I think all violent people should be shot.


League, out of curiosity, has anybody ever considered you violent, or been afraid of you, because of your autism? As for me, the answer is no.

I would also agree that capital punishment--or violent people being shot--is not always a bad idea. Whether capital punishment serves as a deterrent is open to debate. What is not open to debate is that the executed person will never harm another innocent again. And, as has been pointed out already on this thread, aspies are much more likely to be victims of violence than its perpetrators. We don't deserve that.



The staff told me in the special ed room they were afraid when I walked out of the room when I was in 6th grade. I read in my medical report and my mom told me parents didn't want their kids near me and I can guess it's because I didn't know when to stop teasing. I don't think kids were afraid of me or else they would have not bullied me and even my self defense didn't scare them because they still didn't leave me alone. They just saw they could get me into trouble after provoking me. I hope this answers your question. I had a friend who turned into a bully and she could get friends by making kids afraid of her and they would end up as her friend because they were afraid and I could never do that. I don't know how she did it. Then by 6th grade she was already doing drugs, smoking weed. You don't even need to be violent to make people afraid of you because this girl certainly wasn't violent but she used threats and according to my mother she used violent threats to other kids and she used to threaten to rip the heads off my Barbies if I didn't do as she wanted. Okay maybe that is a little violent.

Also why would it be debated about rather an executed person will never harm an innocent person again, they're already dead so why debate it? There is no way they can harm another innocent if they are dead.


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02 Dec 2013, 5:46 pm

The staff told me in the special ed room they were afraid when I walked out of the room when I was in 6th grade. I read in my medical report and my mom told me parents didn't want their kids near me and I can guess it's because I didn't know when to stop teasing. I don't think kids were afraid of me or else they would have not bullied me and even my self defense didn't scare them because they still didn't leave me alone. They just saw they could get me into trouble after provoking me. I hope this answers your question. I had a friend who turned into a bully and she could get friends by making kids afraid of her and they would end up as her friend because they were afraid and I could never do that. I don't know how she did it. Then by 6th grade she was already doing drugs, smoking weed. You don't even need to be violent to make people afraid of you because this girl certainly wasn't violent but she used threats and according to my mother she used violent threats to other kids and she used to threaten to rip the heads off my Barbies if I didn't do as she wanted. Okay maybe that is a little violent.

Also why would it be debated about rather an executed person will never harm an innocent person again, they're already dead so why debate it? There is no way they can harm another innocent if they are dead.

League Girl, I really meant as an adult. As kids we all do things we wouldn't dream of as adults. I went to a high school full of hillbillies in eastern Kentucky for two years with students who would rather fight than eat, and I did my share.

Hopefully we grow up though, and as an adult, nobody has ever accused me of being violent. In fact, I have permission from my board, the body to which I'm accountable at work, to keep a pistol in my vehicle, and do. My larger point is that most people are at least somewhat fair, and will judge us as individuals after they come to know us. Anybody who judges us based on this incident, or what Lanza did, doesn't have an opinion worth being concerned about.

As far as the death penalty goes, I was alluding to the pro and con argument over whether it serves as a deterrent to others, with the pro side generally saying it is a deterrent, while the con side says it is not. I would say sometimes it is necessary regardless of its deterrent value. For example, what do you do with a convict who kills others inside the prison after being given life with non parole?

Thank you for your interesting remarks.



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02 Dec 2013, 6:08 pm

No I have never been seen as violent nor had people afraid of me as an adult. I don't see why they would be afraid or think of me as violent. However my ex boyfriend told me I had violent thoughts which is true.


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02 Dec 2013, 6:10 pm

Jono wrote:
Annmaria wrote:
OliveOilMom yes he certainly isn't a gentle man now, but my original question was Why? Patrick mum was well known by so many in the community and so was he as he was always by her side. I never met him but that is how he was described as a gentle introverted man/young adult. Distresses by playing games on electronics constantly. Does talk but would have to get him to engage.

So many people would have had contact with him and I am sure if he was aggressive or violent surely he would not have been able to hide this.

Again I was just wondering why or what would make a gentle person do such a violent act and Kill the only person he has in his life. There has been mention of wrong medication that he was taking.

I do think that this murder would not get so much attention if his mum was not such a public figure in the autism community in this country.

But as a mother of an autistic son when these terrible things happen is only natural to ask questions. My son takes medication there is side effects. Anything we can do to protect or education ourselves and our family can't and shouldn't been seen a double standards or an attack on members of society.

Here in Ireland at the moment a number of young men have committed suicide whom are involved in our traditional sport. My son plays the game and is heavily involve in the club so again I ask question and I worry why this is happening. We are parents isn't this our job there is no hidden agenda's only the safety of our family and friends and at times or community.


Regarding the medication thing, I do know that certain medications can turn an autistic person psychotic. That's why they should never be put on Prozac for example. This is not the first time that I've heard of an autistic person turning violent because of the medication that they've been on and Prozac is an example of a drug that has a reputation predisposing certain kinds of to violent behaviour. Again, I don't know what medication this guy was put on but I'm just using Prozac as an example.


I can relate to this - many years ago when I was diagnosed as having social phobia disorder, I was put on a certain antidepressant that made me feel constantly angry and full of violent thoughts. It was a most unpleasant experience as I have never had violent thoughts before in my entire life! Needless to say I soon came off those particular pills before I did anything bad.


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02 Dec 2013, 6:26 pm

Personally I don't know anywhere near enough to comment on this particular case. To even try to fathom what happened in that house would be pointless without access to all the evidence and the ability to interview the alleged murderer.

In the general sense, I would say that being an aspie doesn't make anyone more or less capable of murder. Even amongst NT's the quietest members of society can still become murderers (in the drug induced violent mood that I described in my previous post, I can't even say that I would have been incapable of murder).

I do think however that it is a shame that if an 'NT' commits murder no-one talks about NT's being dangerous, yet when an aspie kills it is pointed out that we all apparently have the potential for violence.


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02 Dec 2013, 6:50 pm

this reminds me of allanis morisette's "jagged little pill." obviously a song about anger over a broken relationship, there was no end to the commentary about how this woman needed to be on prozac, in therapy, etc.

meanwhile the toadies released "possum kingdom" at around the same time, which is essentially about a serial killer luring his prey down to the boathouse. don't believe me? here are the creepy lyrics which excited NO comment at all:
Make up your mind
Decide to walk with me
Around the lake tonight
Around the lake tonight
By my side
By my side
I'm not gonna lie
I'll not be a gentleman
Behind the boathouse
I'll show you my dark secret

I'm not gonna lie
I want you for mine
My blushing bride
My lover, be my lover, yeah...

Don't be afraid
I didn't mean to scare you
So help me, Jesus

I can promise you
You'll stay as beautiful
With dark hair
And soft skin...forever
Forever

Make up your mind
Make up your mind
And I'll promise you
I will treat you well
My sweet angel
So help me, Jesus

(hey, hey, hey)

Give it up to me
Give it up to me
Do you wanna be
My angel?
So help me!

Be my angel
Be my angel
Do you wanna die?
I promise you
I will treat you well
My sweet angel
So help me, Jesus

Jesus
Jesus
Jesus..

so one angry women excites a host of commentary, while your run of the mill angry guy gets no attention at all.

this society is full of biased bullshit.

that is why the court of public opinion scares me.


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03 Dec 2013, 7:55 am

beneficii wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
Maybe he had some kind of crazy that just didn't show up until a certain trigger set him off. That can happen. Also, certain mental illnesses don't show up until teens or later so it could be that. Maybe he just snapped. Just because he was autistic doesn't rule out any of that other stuff, and it doesn't make him some gentle saint of a person who was obviously pushed into doing this. Crazy is as crazy does.


I think the term crazy as used here is offensive and stigmatizing. It's also listed here:

http://www.autistichoya.com/p/ableist-w ... avoid.html

Yeah well I'm not really gonna lose any sleep over saying a word that offends a guy who killed his mother with an axe. There is such a thing as taking it too far. As for stigmatizing, dude has a lot more to stigmatize him now, than just the fact that a stranger online called him crazy. And if it wasn't crazy, then how exactly would you describe it?

Another problem with the term crazy is that it's not very specific.


Crazy is a catch all term for mental illnesses, freakouts, breakdowns, jackassery, etc that hasn't been pinpointed with a specific name. If you don't think hacking his mother to death with an axe is crazy, then I seriously suggest you recalibrate crazy.

He killed his mother out of the blue, that is crazy. I'm also not going to limit my speech and thought by some list that the internet says could possibly hurt someones feelings, like the feelings of people who kill their mother with an axe.

I have some mental illness. There are times I'm crazy as a shithouse rat. So what? It's the truth, and it's not offensive. I get better.

PS he's not crazy because he's autistic, he's crazy on top of being autistic. Two different animals.



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03 Dec 2013, 10:27 am

grahamguitarman wrote:
I can relate to this - many years ago when I was diagnosed as having social phobia disorder, I was put on a certain antidepressant that made me feel constantly angry and full of violent thoughts. It was a most unpleasant experience as I have never had violent thoughts before in my entire life! Needless to say I soon came off those particular pills before I did anything bad.


I think there is the potential for combinations of circumstances to bring any person to violence; now whether that violence is expressed or acted upon is a different matter but I think it is there. I have responded to violence towards me and bullying with a similar level of violence back towards my attacker. I kicked and punched (and even hit a bully with a chair when I was 5 years old) and used aggressive words when I reached a point where enough was enough and I flipped. My 'way of being' has led to much frustration throughout my life, which in turn has sometimes led to anger, but most of my anger has been directed inwards - I have never instigated anything, merely responded in kind. I appreciate some may see this as semantics, but I think there is a difference. I have an amazing partner now, who has changed my life and the anger has dissipated, however, in the past many things would fester and bubble inside me and suddenly something, and it was often a small and trivial thing, would prove to be a tipping point and I would explode. It is really odd for me to read that 'Aspies don't get violent' because this one did, and it somehow feels the same as saying, "All Swedes are blondes!" That makes no sense either.

I used to do work on the 'Lifer' wing of a number of prisons and many of the men there, locked away for killing somebody, spoke about not feeling in control of their actions when they lashed out or whatever they did. Very few failed to express what I perceived to be genuine remorse, but nearly all spoke about not being able to handle the feeling and snapping. I obviously don't know why the terrible incident reported in the OP happened, and don't want to speculate, but I sometimes feel lucky that I didn't find myself in a similar situation in the past.


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03 Dec 2013, 10:32 am

League_Girl wrote:
No I have never been seen as violent nor had people afraid of me as an adult. I don't see why they would be afraid or think of me as violent. However my ex boyfriend told me I had violent thoughts which is true.


Yes, while concupiscence normally applies to sexual thoughts, it can apply to thoughts of violence as well. Since we can't always help what we think, we shouldn't feel guilty about our thoughts--at least provided we don't act on them.