Mitch McConnell: Tea Party Is "Ruining" GOP

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Kraichgauer
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04 Dec 2013, 1:49 pm

Regarding if genocide applies to the treatment of Native Americans - it certainly wasn't due to lack of trying in ridding the landscape of the original inhabitants. And even if the intent hadn't been to eliminate their whole population, the actions of the military, civil government, and many of the settlers had put their survival in doubt for a very long time. Even when they had been given land on reservations, it was more a matter of keeping them as far away and out of sight from the whites who despised them than it was for any benefit for the Native Americans.


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04 Dec 2013, 1:56 pm

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. Tell me, do Arabs and Indians have a right to countries of their own? If so, why aren't you willing to acknowledge that Americans have the same rights? Why do you consider me to be less human that others?


If you reserve an entire country for one single race of people, you're creating an apartheid state. America is not such a country. The continent wasn't even that way before the Europeans arrived.

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Actually, European diseases eliminated about ninety percent of American Indians, as well as those in Mexico and Central America.

As far as building a wall along the east coast goes, I will leave you to fight with your straw man. I understand it is how liberals prove their courage.


You explicitly said that they should have fortified their borders against European naval forces. The east coast is pretty long, and there is no shortage of places for ships to deploy their occupants. Plus there are inlets that can and were used as ingress points.

As for strawmen, you've created a "liberal" archetype that you've used throughout the entire thread. Including the sentence right after you accused me of using strawmen.

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Genocide? Do you even know what genocide is? If Americans had wanted to commit genocide against the Indians, there wouldn't be any around.

BTW, it is ironic you sent me the picture you did, which is obviously of the trail of tears. The reason Jackson orchestrated this move was because he was sickened by the Puritan approach to dealing with their Indian tribes, which was real genocide.


So the Nazis didn't commit genocide because some German Jews survived? So the Ottoman Empire didn't commit genocide against the Armenians because there are still some left?

I've literally never seen anyone try to paint the Trail of Tears as a mission of mercy.



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04 Dec 2013, 2:04 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Regarding if genocide applies to the treatment of Native Americans - it certainly wasn't due to lack of trying in ridding the landscape of the original inhabitants. And even if the intent hadn't been to eliminate their whole population, the actions of the military, civil government, and many of the settlers had put their survival in doubt for a very long time. Even when they had been given land on reservations, it was more a matter of keeping them as far away and out of sight from the whites who despised them than it was for any benefit for the Native Americans.


Even worse, it never really stopped. The remains of the Quapaw Tribe were given a reservation in Picher, OK. 80% of it was promptly mined into oblivion for lead, which contaminated the ground and water beyond salvation. The lead content of the entire area was so hazardous that Picher is now a ghost town. The government paid the residents a small sum to move the residents that wanted to leave, and that was that. As for the Quapaws? Sorry, try not getting sent to a live on a lead mine next time.



Kraichgauer
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04 Dec 2013, 2:06 pm

TheGoggles wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Regarding if genocide applies to the treatment of Native Americans - it certainly wasn't due to lack of trying in ridding the landscape of the original inhabitants. And even if the intent hadn't been to eliminate their whole population, the actions of the military, civil government, and many of the settlers had put their survival in doubt for a very long time. Even when they had been given land on reservations, it was more a matter of keeping them as far away and out of sight from the whites who despised them than it was for any benefit for the Native Americans.


Even worse, it never really stopped. The remains of the Quapaw Tribe were given a reservation in Picher, OK. 80% of it was promptly mined into oblivion for lead, which contaminated the ground and water beyond salvation. The lead content of the entire area was so hazardous that Picher is now a ghost town. The government paid the residents a small sum to move the residents that wanted to leave, and that was that. As for the Quapaws? Sorry, try not getting sent to a live on a lead mine next time.


That's horrible.


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Thelibrarian
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04 Dec 2013, 2:52 pm

TheGoggles wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Regarding if genocide applies to the treatment of Native Americans - it certainly wasn't due to lack of trying in ridding the landscape of the original inhabitants. And even if the intent hadn't been to eliminate their whole population, the actions of the military, civil government, and many of the settlers had put their survival in doubt for a very long time. Even when they had been given land on reservations, it was more a matter of keeping them as far away and out of sight from the whites who despised them than it was for any benefit for the Native Americans.


Even worse, it never really stopped. The remains of the Quapaw Tribe were given a reservation in Picher, OK. 80% of it was promptly mined into oblivion for lead, which contaminated the ground and water beyond salvation. The lead content of the entire area was so hazardous that Picher is now a ghost town. The government paid the residents a small sum to move the residents that wanted to leave, and that was that. As for the Quapaws? Sorry, try not getting sent to a live on a lead mine next time.


I notice you expect others to feel terribly guilty about all of this stuff, but you haven't told me how you have absolved yourself of all of this collective guilt.

Here is a question for both of you:

The part of Texas I live in was inhabited by a tribe called the Kickapoos at the time of Columbus. They were wiped out in this part of Texas by the Apache. In turn the Apache were wiped out in this part of Texas by the Comanche. Do the Comanche and Apache have a right to be here? [/b]

And here is a very entertaining video that just might open your eyes to a few things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibP22-DoH6Y



Thelibrarian
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04 Dec 2013, 2:56 pm

The moderator Talleyman has just informed me that I am no longer welcome here. Leave it to the cowardly French to censor ideas they object to.

I wish the rest of you well.



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04 Dec 2013, 2:58 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
The moderator Talleyman has just informed me that I am no longer welcome here. Leave it to the cowardly French to censor ideas they object to.

I wish the rest of you well.


Actually I told you to use the quote feature instead of just dumping your comments in bold into someone else's post as it makes a mess of continuity. I removed one such messed up post. Call it censorship if you want. I call it keeping order in the debates. Frankly I don't care what your opinions were in the post I removed... I didn't even read it! You are welcome here provided you post properly.


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AutisticMillionaire
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04 Dec 2013, 3:15 pm

librarian I blame both the right and the left for ruining the country. The last thing I'd ever want to see is everyone working together in lockstep...even if they agreed with me. As I often say...to each their own.

I see the nation making a move to a central-Libertarian mindset, though it will take a time. Pro-gun, pro-legalization, marry-whoever, and do as one wishes instead of having another man make that decision for you is the future.

America loves guns, it loves drugs, video-games and personal freedom...it loves choices, but we still have losers on the right and left thinking they can make better choices than the individual can. Those are the only problems I see, and the philosophy of Republicanism and Democratism are both dying ideologies in the age of the internet and the free exchange of ideas. I'm not sure you will even see parties as they are today in 50 yrs.


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04 Dec 2013, 4:34 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
Wanting to protect America is "hating" it?

Gated communities suck. You want America to become a gated community. Therefore, you want America to suck. Therefore, you hate America.

If you doubt that gated communities suck, try visiting one. They represent the worst of wealth.

I have a friend who lives in one. Visiting her is bizarre. Not only is the community gated off, but each house has an electronically-controlled gate. Then behind that gate you have a massive driveway, a massive house and a massive garden. All the millionaires are locked up inside private prisons, totally cut off from the rest of society. And it's much worse in Third World Countries

Let's not forget that America probably has the strictest immigration policy in the world.
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You can't just say "that's Orwellian" when it isn't.

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04 Dec 2013, 4:39 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
I notice you expect others to feel terribly guilty about all of this stuff, but you haven't told me how you have absolved yourself of all of this collective guilt.


You absolved yourself with your Lost Cause of the Confederacy argument - a common Confederate sympathizer position, see below:

http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Lost_Cause_The#start_entry

The one example I will show is Confederate VP Alexander Stephens on what the Civil War was essentially about:

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Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth...


This is the tenth paragraph in the "Corner Stone Speech." (http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/) Perusing through the article is basically the same gist.


@thelibrarian: Are you a Southern Baptist? (A denomination which formed to keep slavery alive?) That would explain why there are so many liberals today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention_conservative_resurgence - Wikipedia article on the "Conservative Resurgence" in the SBC, which drove the denomination to the right at the expense of numerous practicioners

I think it is rather dishonest to point to anecdotal events in Louisiana when during the Civil War the Confederate Army didn't trust slaves to have guns, etc. You do understand slaves should be kept healthy because of what they do, right?


As a slight aside, the feel-good story about being blacks being educated in Mississippi has a serious problem (other than being more Lost Cause nonsense):

http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/mississippi/ - Information on what was essentially apartheid in the state (although I am think the actual meaning of the word indicates a minority is in control). The events in the state accelerated the process of acceptance of the Civil Rights laws because of how notorious they were; other states contributed.



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04 Dec 2013, 6:01 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
I disagree emphatically. Immigration is the ONLY issue that matters right now. What immigration will guarantee is that Americans become a despised minority in their own country. What open borders guarantees is civil war in this country. Tell me, do Arabs and Indians have a right to countries of their own? If so, why aren't you willing to acknowledge that Americans have the same rights? Why do you consider me to be less human that others?


You do realize that Americans will never be a minority, unless you consider anyone who is not of anglo descent the only Americans. I don't understand how immigration is the only issue that matters. I will need that one spelled out.

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Nonsense. The jobs have simply been offshored to the places with the cheapest labor. China is booming right now, and the concern is that there will soon be a labor shortage. I just don't understand your callous disregard for Americans, sir. Should we all just starve and disappear from the earth? Are we former people?


Do you only see people who are the same as you to be American? Does citizenship mean nothing?

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So, you believe those Americans are just lazy and no good, huh? How do you explain then that we created a country that your ancestors wanted to immigrate to?


I never said they were no good, just lazy. And not all Americans, just most of them. That doesn't mean they don't work hard, just that they won't if they can avoid it in any way.

My ancestors were here long before the War for Independence, so it wasn't the country that you created that they came to.

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Ah, now we come to the crux of it: You don't like white people. Am I being melodramatic? I would say not since I can't imagine you talking so cavalierly about people with an "excrement brown complexion"? Why don't you leave your racial hatreds out of this? It is indecent.


I never said "excrement brown." I don't hate white people at all. I don't quite know where you got that idea. I am about as white as they come.

Thelibrarian wrote:
As far as socialism goes, which I assume is what you are referring to by "spending money to create jobs", are you not aware that this approach has been a dismal failure wherever it has been tried? The fact that America has never been this way explains why it is an immigrant magnet.


Ummmm . . . Pumping money into the economy has worked many times in the past. And it is not socialism by any means, either.

Thelibrarian wrote:
A country that isn't willing to use lethal force to defend itself isn't long for this world, with sounds to be just what you want for the American people. This is standard Political Correctness, which makes the very existence of an American nation into some kind of immoral act. Sorry, I find your position to be extreme, as well as highly irrational, as I'm sure you wouldn't say the same for Third World peoples fending off imperialism. Your position sounds suspiciously like the imperialism of old.


How do you get imperialism out of anything I have ever posted? How is my position extreme? Not executing people you don't like is not going to end this country. I love my country. But part of that love is not being blind to the rest of the world or so narrow and short sighted that only one single thing is the problem. And I don't understand how you can call me irrational based on your faulty impression of my views and some views that you are making up and just assuming I have. Perhaps you could explain my contradictory statements a little better so that I can figure out what you mean.


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sonofghandi
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04 Dec 2013, 6:14 pm

TheGoggles wrote:
That's a factor that doesn't help, but our trade war with China is much worse. Clinton signed off on free trade with the Chinese, and they immediately offered American manufacturers a place where they could use prison labor, child labor, and sweatshop labor. No pollution control whatsoever. Vietnam, India, and Bangladesh offer the same attractive deals.

It's not like the Chinese plan a land war or anything, but they want to establish economic supremacy. Whether they can maintain that while everyone's getting cancer or committing suicide remains to be seen.


Don't get me wrong, tons of jobs went out of the country for the cheap labor. It was a way of avoiding the expense of investing in expensive equipment. When trade with China kicked into high gear, many American companies who did not invest in infrastructure or modernization were struggling to compete, so they jumped ship here as fast as possible so they could reduce expenses enough to survive. Unfortunately, it has become the norm. Once China's average standard of living gets high enough, those jobs will disappear as they are replaced by machines/computers or get relocated to the next desperate nation.

Personally, as much as it upsets me to say, I think that China is already very close to economic superiority. The only thing keeping us them right now is the fact that our currency is the go-to reserve currency in the world (although another downgrade could change all that in a hurry).


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04 Dec 2013, 8:16 pm

Yeah, I tried to avoid Nihilism whenever I can because my psyche is bad enough at this point. But it's a very real possibility that they've already achieved what they set out to do. I doubt Chinese currency will ever become the global standard though. They don't make much of an effort to hide their currency manipulation.