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AngelRho
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10 Dec 2013, 3:49 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Appeal to law. Over time laws are fickle and can be changed. While the individual cannot do much in the face of the law, it is possible for a growing minority fighting injustice to set the law on its ear. All it should take is acceptance of the unborn as the persons that they are with as much right to life as those already outside the womb.

That doesn't mean "majority makes it right," of course, but right or wrong the will of the people often prevails in a free society.


The only reason I bring law in is because you cannot demand someone do what you want if the law does not support you. If abortion was not legal, I would probably not be in this argument. If you don't like the laws, by all means continue to write to your representatives and tell them so in no uncertain terms.

We're working on it.



LKL
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11 Dec 2013, 12:21 am

Ganondox wrote:
You are much older than me, so you've had much more time to change your lifestyle. However, what we do is irrelevant as debates are about our points, not us. You are also apparently a libertarian, I do not subscribe to libertarian philosophy, especially when I believe an catastrophe can be avoided.

actually, I've been a vegetarian (with occasional brief lapses) since 1995. Also, I'm a socialist. :D
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Yes. They should be forced to [donate a chunk of their liver]. :P You really think someone should be allowed to die just because someone doesn't want to bother being cut open?

Yes. I don't think that anyone's brief life is worth the bodily autonomy of another person. I find the idea of forcibly using someone's body revolting, basically the same thing as slavery if not worse: 'I will take this labor/liver/blood supply/womb from you, and there is nothing you can do about it.' It strikes me on such a visceral level as morally evil that it's hard to even articulate.
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Also, embryos aren't disorganized lumps of tissue, they lack developed morphology, but they are incredibly organized, and unlike brain dead person their functioning is going to increase in the future. You also can't be assured that sentience is completely lacked.

Yeah, actually they are (at least at the stage when most abortions occur) and yeah, actually I can. I've studied enough biology, and dissected enough brains (and whole organisms), to have a pretty good idea of how much organization is there and how much neurological function it takes to have some sort of sentience and sapience. Zefs don't even function on the level of a salmon until the 3rd trimester.
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Does the definite autonomy of a single individual versus potentially a different group really matter in a life or death moral decision? Either way the baby is dependent, and it should be cared for.

Again, you're saying something that belies a world view so completely foreign to what I consider morally correct that it's hard to even believe that's what you're saying, even though the wording is quite clear. Of course it matters. It's like the difference between having a ball-and-chain attached to your ankle, and a backpack that you can take off and hand to another person sometimes. One is a punishment; the other is a choice.


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Say a woman goes into labor, is it okay for her to get an abortion rather than go through birth at that point? After-all, the baby hasn't technically been born yet.
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When you have any evidence that this actually happens on any statistical level involving medical staff who are not sociopaths, and women who are not sociopaths, I will consider it relevant. Until then, you have no point.

It has as much of a point as your exploded liver example. The point is that you are admitting that birth is not as absolute of a line as you proclaimed.

Personally, I'm ok with the extant restrictions on 3rd trimester abortions (life & health of the mother, fetal abnormality), in large part because of that neurological development that I previously mentioned. Birth is still the dividing line, where the fetus goes from being inside the woman and dependent on her body, to being outside of it and using its own heart, lungs, kidneys, etc; at the point of labor, though, actually giving birth is going to be the safest way to get the fetus out.
To me, the point of an abortion is to 'not go through pregnancy, labor, and childbirth,' so waiting 9 months and starting labor sort of makes the abortion a moot point.


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Might as well argue it's okay to kill diabetics because they can't naturally regulate their insulin levels.
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If being a diabetic involved forcing another person to donate their pancreas for the manufacture of insulin, then yes: I would argue that the second person had the right to remove themselves at will as a life-support mechanism. Humans are not machines to be used by other organisms, regardless of the stage of development or the personhood in question.
False analogy as donating ones pancreas would leave one without a pancreas themselves. If there were no long term harm and only a single person is a viable donor, then yes, they should be forced to donate if the diabetic person demands it. I say ones control over their LIFE is more important than the control of their BODY.

Well, clearly I disagree.
People are dying for lack of livers, bone marrow, and kidneys every day; why don't we forcibly establish a donor registry that every citizen must participate in, and take one kidney, some marrow, and a third of a liver from everyone, so that those who need kidneys, marrow, or livers to survive don't die on the waiting list? It would save hundreds or thousands of lives every year, and very few people would die in the donation process or suffer from any long-term harm. Hell, why not mandate biannual blood donations from everyone who is an acceptable donor?
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The humanity argument you are making is irrelevant as by human I wasn't referring to biologically human, but to being "people".

I don't think zefs are people.
Doesn't matter what you think, other people think that they are and you can't kill something just on the grounds that you don't think it deserves rights.

Yeah, it actually does matter what I think, since you don't get to impose your views on the rest of the world any more than you get to take a kidney from me even if you need it more than I do.

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why? They're both medical conditions, and for a woman who didn't want to get pregnant, the diagnosis can be just as devastating to hear.

They're both medical conditions?! Equivocation! I might as say Jesus and Satan are comparable because they are both angels.
Heck, by that logic BREATHING is a medical condition.

No; abnormal breathing and insufficient oxygenation is a medical condition. Breathing is the normal state of a healthy mammal.
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...pregnancy does not qualify as it is not an abnormal state characteristic of dysfunction of the nature bodily functions, quite the opposite. It's a symptom the body is working as intended.

Intended!?
By whom? Obviously not by the woman in question, if she's seeking an abortion. Cancer is natural, too. Everything dies of something, naturally. Lots of women used to die of pregnancy and childbirth, and even if they have 'normal' pregnancies, they're often pretty goddamn miserable for 9 months.
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Lung cancer kills, pregnancy creates life.

You are incorrect; lung cancer sometimes kills. Pregnancy sometimes continues life in a genetically unique organism, and sometimes also kills or maims the woman in question. First-trimester abortion is ten times less likely to result in death of the woman than going through full-term pregnancy and childbirth.
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With the view of life as sacred it's abhorrent to compare the two, and it doesn't take religion to have such beliefs. Oh, and yes, finding out you are breathing could be devastating for someone who wanted to stop breathing. :P

That would be the medical condition known as 'suicidal ideation.'



Ganondox
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11 Dec 2013, 2:15 am

sonofghandi wrote:

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You are misunderstanding. The creation of life would be conception, I guess, but life continues throughout, well, life, and life is beautiful.


There are a multitude of people out there who do not find their lives to be beautiful.


Oh well, that's a shame for them, I wish they didn't feel that way, doesn't change want I think of the phenomena life in general.
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>Implying most would be abortions are in poverty (probably true)
>implying poverty is so much misery that it's better if the poor were never born at all


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Nice to know that you think all poor people are nothing to but a burden to society. I'll be sure to keep that in mind.


You are reading a bit too much into my words. I personally feel that there is entirely too much poverty, and that adding to their ranks is going to lead to much more suffering for more people for a longer period of time. I think we should be fighting poverty, not abortion. I do not feel that it is ok to ask existing people to sacrifice their future happiness, finances, hopes, and dreams for the sake of a potential person's potential happiness. I have lived in poverty stricken areas my entire life, and until recently was well under the poverty line. I have seen first hand how difficult life is for those who are trapped in poverty and hopelessness. Increasing that population helps no one.


It's the logical conclusion of what you said. Blaming the problems of poverty on the poor existing. Tsk tsk. Poor people are people, not a population number. I agree that fighting poverty is a much more important issue than abortion, but that doesn't by extension make abortion right.
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If you want to continue arguing the morality of abortion, that is fine by me, but since it is legal, I really don't think you have much of a say in what people do.

This is stupid logic. What would be the point in discussing anything if we are just going to accept the law as perfect both practically and morally?


You can talk about what you believe all you want to; I am just saying that as long as abortion is legal, you cannot demand others to follow your personal version of moral law.


I'm not demanding anything from anyone, just debating what I think the law SHOULD be. The law as it is is completely irrelevant.


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dizzywater
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11 Dec 2013, 2:17 am

AngelRho wrote:
dizzywater wrote:
If you felt your neighbour was a threat you could move house. A pregnant woman cannot abandon her own body, it is completely different.

Why should I be the one to move? OK, I don't hold any animosity towards him, but suppose I did. He's out there, sitting on his front steps, smoking a cigarette, strapped with a 9mm, and he's breathing MY freakin' oxygen. They ALL breathin' my oxygen. Kill 'em.

dizzywater wrote:
Stabbing real people who have real lives and real loved ones is not the same as abortion. The foetus has potential, but is not wanted and no-one is offering it a place in the world, it is cruel to bring an unwanted child into the world, they will suffer, and for what purpose?

Stabbing real people who have real lives and real loved ones is not the same as stabbing k!k3s and n!gg3rs. K!k3s and n!gg3rs have potential, but are not wanted and no-one is offering them a place in the world, it is cruel to allow k!k3s and n!gg3rs to live in the world, they will suffer, and for what purpose?


Where do I start?

You don't have to move if you don't want to, its your choice. You seem quite outraged that you should be dictated to about where you live, while trying to dictate to others what happens inside their own bodies! Hypocrisy doesn't even begin to describe that!

Whatever your views on race, I don't share them, I haven't come across that sort of thinking in real life, I've never been to America, but I can't imagine that many people think that way.



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11 Dec 2013, 4:30 am

LKL wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
You are much older than me, so you've had much more time to change your lifestyle. However, what we do is irrelevant as debates are about our points, not us. You are also apparently a libertarian, I do not subscribe to libertarian philosophy, especially when I believe an catastrophe can be avoided.

actually, I've been a vegetarian (with occasional brief lapses) since 1995. Also, I'm a socialist. :D


Hey, you still would have been older than me. I've been vegetarian sense I've been born with daily lapses. I guess I must be RADICALLY socialist. :P
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Yes. They should be forced to [donate a chunk of their liver]. :P You really think someone should be allowed to die just because someone doesn't want to bother being cut open?

Yes. I don't think that anyone's brief life is worth the bodily autonomy of another person. I find the idea of forcibly using someone's body revolting, basically the same thing as slavery if not worse: 'I will take this labor/liver/blood supply/womb from you, and there is nothing you can do about it.' It strikes me on such a visceral level as morally evil that it's hard to even articulate.

And you don't find just leaving someone to die when you can easily save them to be morally evil? I don't think it would be as bad as slavery as slavery is control over one's labors and efforts and time, not just their tissues. Now, my conclusion was bit extreme, but the analogy is false. Pregnancy isn't control over a woman's body, that's the natural process of things. Rather, abortion is violates the fetuses rights over it's own body AND it's life. The difference between cutting open a guy to take out his liver and NOT cutting open a woman to take out a fetus is pretty f*****g obvious. Now, I'm going to make this a clear, if I a woman is going to risk her life with an underground abortion procedure I'm not going to stop it, and indeed if a woman is desperate enough to do that she should be given a clinical one, but I don't think abortions should just be handed out on the whim.
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Also, embryos aren't disorganized lumps of tissue, they lack developed morphology, but they are incredibly organized, and unlike brain dead person their functioning is going to increase in the future. You also can't be assured that sentience is completely lacked.

Yeah, actually they are (at least at the stage when most abortions occur) and yeah, actually I can. I've studied enough biology, and dissected enough brains (and whole organisms), to have a pretty good idea of how much organization is there and how much neurological function it takes to have some sort of sentience and sapience. Zefs don't even function on the level of a salmon until the 3rd trimester.

Um, most abortions occur after 6 weeks. By then it looks like this:
Image
It's clearly organized, it even has proto-toes. Even a morula is more organized than it appears as the cells are loosly organized based on what they are going to ultimately develop into. Oh, you dissected brains, good for you, tell, how do you know what it's feeling with so much brain? You literally can't determine sentience for anything, it's a philosophical dilemma. Anyway, the potential sapience and sentience of the embryo at the time of abortion has never really been a key point of mine as I agree they most likely aren't aware at that point in time. However, that doesn't make it right. It's like killing a guy while he is unconscious during surgery because you got tired of performing the operation. He isn't aware at the moment, but he certainly would have been shortly if you didn't freaking kill him.
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Does the definite autonomy of a single individual versus potentially a different group really matter in a life or death moral decision? Either way the baby is dependent, and it should be cared for.

Again, you're saying something that belies a world view so completely foreign to what I consider morally correct that it's hard to even believe that's what you're saying, even though the wording is quite clear. Of course it matters. It's like the difference between having a ball-and-chain attached to your ankle, and a backpack that you can take off and hand to another person sometimes. One is a punishment; the other is a choice.


Let me phrase it this way: it doesn't matter if you a carry a backpack or an iron ball if you are going to use it to justify killing a baby. The different is between wearing an iron ball for awhile and not killing a baby and not wearing the iron ball for awhile AND KILLING A BABY. What type of morality says it's okay to kill a baby just so you stop wearing an iron ball? THAT'S foreign to me.

(And pregnancy is not a punishment, stop living in that mindset. Just because you don't like something and you have to live with it doesn't mean it's a punishment. By your logic it magically stops being a punishment and becomes a choice once the baby is born. :roll: )
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Say a woman goes into labor, is it okay for her to get an abortion rather than go through birth at that point? After-all, the baby hasn't technically been born yet.
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When you have any evidence that this actually happens on any statistical level involving medical staff who are not sociopaths, and women who are not sociopaths, I will consider it relevant. Until then, you have no point.

It has as much of a point as your exploded liver example. The point is that you are admitting that birth is not as absolute of a line as you proclaimed.

Personally, I'm ok with the extant restrictions on 3rd trimester abortions (life & health of the mother, fetal abnormality), in large part because of that neurological development that I previously mentioned. Birth is still the dividing line, where the fetus goes from being inside the woman and dependent on her body, to being outside of it and using its own heart, lungs, kidneys, etc; at the point of labor, though, actually giving birth is going to be the safest way to get the fetus out.
To me, the point of an abortion is to 'not go through pregnancy, labor, and childbirth,' so waiting 9 months and starting labor sort of makes the abortion a moot point.


And I say if there is no complications you might as well go through with the 9 months. It's a life experience. :P
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Might as well argue it's okay to kill diabetics because they can't naturally regulate their insulin levels.
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If being a diabetic involved forcing another person to donate their pancreas for the manufacture of insulin, then yes: I would argue that the second person had the right to remove themselves at will as a life-support mechanism. Humans are not machines to be used by other organisms, regardless of the stage of development or the personhood in question.
False analogy as donating ones pancreas would leave one without a pancreas themselves. If there were no long term harm and only a single person is a viable donor, then yes, they should be forced to donate if the diabetic person demands it. I say ones control over their LIFE is more important than the control of their BODY.

Well, clearly I disagree.
People are dying for lack of livers, bone marrow, and kidneys every day; why don't we forcibly establish a donor registry that every citizen must participate in, and take one kidney, some marrow, and a third of a liver from everyone, so that those who need kidneys, marrow, or livers to survive don't die on the waiting list? It would save hundreds or thousands of lives every year, and very few people would die in the donation process or suffer from any long-term harm. Hell, why not mandate biannual blood donations from everyone who is an acceptable donor?

I think that would be a great idea. :P Anyway, the key difference is this clause: "only a single person is a viable donor". Definitely we should find ways to increase the supply of parts, there is no need for making it mandatory or drafted if the supply is increased to appropriate level voluntary. The least we can do is set organ donation to the default, it has a huge impact.
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The humanity argument you are making is irrelevant as by human I wasn't referring to biologically human, but to being "people".

I don't think zefs are people.
Doesn't matter what you think, other people think that they are and you can't kill something just on the grounds that you don't think it deserves rights.

Yeah, it actually does matter what I think, since you don't get to impose your views on the rest of the world any more than you get to take a kidney from me even if you need it more than I do.

And what makes you the arbitor of who and who is not a person? That's why your personal views don't matter, mine don't either. Oh, and what's with the term zef, where did that come from? It sounds like a racial slur. Hey, you were a zef once too! :P
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why? They're both medical conditions, and for a woman who didn't want to get pregnant, the diagnosis can be just as devastating to hear.

They're both medical conditions?! Equivocation! I might as say Jesus and Satan are comparable because they are both angels.
Heck, by that logic BREATHING is a medical condition.

No; abnormal breathing and insufficient oxygenation is a medical condition. Breathing is the normal state of a healthy mammal.

Pregnancy isn't a medical condition either if you are going to go by that definition. It's also a normal state of a healthy mammal. As I said, equivocation.
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...pregnancy does not qualify as it is not an abnormal state characteristic of dysfunction of the nature bodily functions, quite the opposite. It's a symptom the body is working as intended.

Intended!?
By whom? Obviously not by the woman in question, if she's seeking an abortion. Cancer is natural, too. Everything dies of something, naturally. Lots of women used to die of pregnancy and childbirth, and even if they have 'normal' pregnancies, they're often pretty goddamn miserable for 9 months.

It is not up for the individual to decide what is or is not a disease, otherwise we could have children institutionalized simply for refusing to clean up their room. I want you to go up to every expecting mother you see and tell them they are diseased, I think they will like. Now, the difference isn't the hard to understand. Diseases are not a part of the natural process of a species survival, even though they are naturally occurring and ecologically valuable. Pregnancy is REQUIRED for a species survival, you're mom was once pregnant, otherwise you wouldn't have been born. You can hardly call a essential mechanism a species survival a disease. I guess have s**t in your bowels after eating and piss in your bladder after drinking is a disease too?
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Lung cancer kills, pregnancy creates life.

You are incorrect; lung cancer sometimes kills. Pregnancy sometimes continues life in a genetically unique organism, and sometimes also kills or maims the woman in question. First-trimester abortion is ten times less likely to result in death of the woman than going through full-term pregnancy and childbirth.

"You are incorrect; lung cancer sometimes kills." ARE YOU f*****g KIDDING ME? ARE YOU f*****g SERIOUS? OH, I guess shooting someone in the head sometimes kills them as well. Hey, 5% of them do survive! I might as well say riding a car sometimes kills, you might get in a reck, heck, going outside sometimes kills you as well. Breathing could kill you to! Oh, oh, people sometimes don't like it when you forcibly strip them naked, constrict them with binds and gags, and then sodomize them. People also sometimes don't like being hugged. I guess rape and hugs are the same thing, amiright? You don't know how f*****g ridiculous you sounds saying that both cancer and pregnancy sometimes kill. Yes, you are less likely to die from abortion, you are also significantly less likely to die when you sit on your ass instead of doing something heroic (like going into fires, standing up to armed attacks, pushing old lady out from in front of cars ect.), though I can't find any precise statistics on heroism. Not to mention that there is nearly a 10 times, in the very least more than 5 times, greater chance a fetus will die if you go with an abortion than follow through with the pregnancy. :P

Oh, and your claim about pregnancy only sometimes resulting in a genetically unique organism is more or less false: a genetically unique organism is created at conception, which could be said to be the start of pregnancy. It's a bit more complicated than that because of the start of pregnancy is harder to measure and with in vitro it's just more complicated, it's ultimately a more abstract process when you are getting that picky, but birth does not magically turn a fetus into a unique organism.
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With the view of life as sacred it's abhorrent to compare the two, and it doesn't take religion to have such beliefs. Oh, and yes, finding out you are breathing could be devastating for someone who wanted to stop breathing. :P

That would be the medical condition known as 'suicidal ideation.'

Never said it was healthy to not want to be breathing, but it's the belief, not the fact that you are breathing, that's considered a disease. By extension, I guess not wanting to get pregnant is a disease. :P (jk).


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LKL
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11 Dec 2013, 6:23 am

Ganondox wrote:
LKL wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
You are much older than me, so you've had much more time to change your lifestyle. However, what we do is irrelevant as debates are about our points, not us. You are also apparently a libertarian, I do not subscribe to libertarian philosophy, especially when I believe an catastrophe can be avoided.

actually, I've been a vegetarian (with occasional brief lapses) since 1995. Also, I'm a socialist. :D

Hey, you still would have been older than me. I've been vegetarian sense I've been born with daily lapses. I guess I must be RADICALLY socialist. :P

I guess I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. What was your point, exactly?

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And you don't find just leaving someone to die when you can easily save them to be morally evil?

Applying my health care talents to helping someone is a far cry from forcing me to donate part of my body to them.
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I don't think it would be as bad as slavery as slavery is control over one's labors and efforts and time, not just their tissues.

What, you don't think that the surgery to cut someone's kidney/liver out, and then to recover from that, counts as time and effort? You don't think that pregnancy counts as time and effort? Not to mention a pretty significant amount of pain and suffering.

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Pregnancy isn't control over a woman's body, that's the natural process of things

Yeah, actually it is. The zef takes over a woman's body pretty damn effectively.

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Rather, abortion is violates the fetuses rights over it's own body AND it's life.

Even a born human does not have the right to use another person's body without their permission, much less an unformed zef. If someone were to try to take my liver without my permission, I would be well within my rights to kill them, no matter how much they needed it.

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The difference between cutting open a guy to take out his liver and NOT cutting open a woman to take out a fetus is pretty f***ing obvious.

Abortion, unlike c-sections, do not require 'cutting a woman open.' That's part of why it's safer.
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I don't think abortions should just be handed out on the whim.

Baka. Do you really f*****g think that women do this casually? It's surgery. From what I hear, it really f*****g hurts. I've heard that in some cultures abortion is used as the primary means of birth control, but I have to think that it's pure ignorance and/or the lack of availability of other forms of birth control that make it so, because swallowing a pill every day must hurt a hell of a lot less.
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Um, most abortions occur after 6 weeks. By then it looks like this {snip pic}

That pic is a little bit advanced, actually, wikipedia notwithstanding.
http://php.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/i ... ent#Week_6

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It's clearly organized, it even has proto-toes. Even a morula is more organized than it appears as the cells are loosly organized based on what they are going to ultimately develop into.

The level of 'organization' present at that stage is negligible, despite the appearance of 'toes' (no, they're not actually toes, even at 8 weeks).
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Oh, you dissected brains, good for you, tell, how do you know what it's feeling with so much brain? You literally can't determine sentience for anything, it's a philosophical dilemma.

It's impossible to determine with precision, but it's quite possible to have a fair degree of accuracy. We can look at neurological organization and compare it to the complexity of animal behavior as brains get more and more complex; like I said, a zef isn't even at the level of a fish until the 3rd trimester. EEGs corroborate this conclusion. Things just aren't connected up enough until then.
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It's like killing a guy while he is unconscious during surgery because you got tired of performing the operation. He isn't aware at the moment, but he certainly would have been shortly if you didn't freaking kill him.

No, it's like killing an unconscious guy who's physically hooked up to your body and preventing you from living your life, and will be stuck on you for 9 months.
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Let me phrase it this way: it doesn't matter if you a carry a backpack or an iron ball if you are going to use it to justify killing a baby.

It's not a f*****g "baby." It's a non-sentient, non-sapient zef, using your body without your permission.
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(And pregnancy is not a punishment, stop living in that mindset. Just because you don't like something and you have to live with it doesn't mean it's a punishment. By your logic it magically stops being a punishment and becomes a choice once the baby is born.

It stops being a punishment when and if the woman in question starts wanting it. Once it's born, she can hand it over to CPS or to an adoption agency, and do her best to forget about it, if she doesn't want it.
Pregnancy is one of the greatest gifts that one person can give to another, but without it being a gift given to that person by choice, it becomes a theft of the greatest magnitude instead. It's not a walk in the park.
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And I say if there is no complications you might as well go through with the 9 months. It's a life experience. :P

It's a miserable grueling experience that saps your body so seriously that it literally takes years to recover, and may never be recovered from completely. It's not unusual for women to have permanent physiological damage from pregnancy and childbirth, and I'm not talking about stretch marks or other cosmetic issues.
Funny how pro-life people always end up minimizing the experience of pregnancy and childbirth, every single goddamn thread we go through.

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People are dying for lack of livers, bone marrow, and kidneys every day; why don't we forcibly establish a donor registry that every citizen must participate in, and take one kidney, some marrow, and a third of a liver from everyone, so that those who need kidneys, marrow, or livers to survive don't die on the waiting list? It would save hundreds or thousands of lives every year, and very few people would die in the donation process or suffer from any long-term harm. Hell, why not mandate biannual blood donations from everyone who is an acceptable donor?

I think that would be a great idea. :P Anyway, the key difference is this clause: "only a single person is a viable donor".

Ever heard of tissue typing? You can't just take a liver from any random person and stick it into a person. That's part of why waiting for an organ takes so long. Right now, there might be someone out there who you're the only perfect tissue match for, and who will die if you don't happen to liquefy your brain in a motorcycle accident in the next moth or so.
To be clear, I'm a registered organ donor, but it only happens once I'm brain-dead and have no interest in using the parts any more.
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And what makes you the arbitor of who and who is not a person? That's why your personal views don't matter, mine don't either.

Democracy.
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Oh, and what's with the term zef, where did that come from? It sounds like a racial slur. Hey, you were a zef once too! :P

Zygote/Embryo/Fetus. Accounts for the entire span of development from fertilization through birth. If you're not one of those, "it's a person from fertilization!" people, then the relevant term would be 'ef.'
I wouldn't exactly say that I was a zef once, any more than I would say that I was an ovum and/or a spermatozoan once; rather, there once existed a zef which eventually became me.
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Breathing is the normal state of a healthy mammal.


Pregnancy isn't a medical condition either if you are going to go by that definition. It's also a normal state of a healthy mammal. As I said, equivocation.
[/quote]
No, actually, pregnancy is not the normal state of a healthy mammal. The fact that it happens on accident does not make it "normal," it makes it "common."
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It is not up for the individual to decide what is or is not a disease...

The medical community considers pregnancy a medical condition requiring close monitoring, periodic blood draws, frequent office visits, and often other (uncomfortable) tests as well, not to mention a suite of special behaviors that the woman is advised to perform in order to make sure everything goes as smoothly as possible. All of the extra care and monitoring is part of why women don't experience the common condition of death in childbirth as frequently as they used to.

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I want you to go up to every expecting mother you see and tell them they are diseased, I think they will like.

If they want the zef, they'll agree that they should be getting adequate prenatal care. If they don't want it, the'll be likely to decline the prenatal care and possibly call it something worse than 'disease.'

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Pregnancy is REQUIRED for a species survival...

It's required for humans, yes. Your language is very imprecise.
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...you're mom was once pregnant, otherwise you wouldn't have been born.

My mother was pro-choice. I'm glad to know that I was wanted, and not something that she eventually convinced herself to 'accept.'
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You can hardly call a essential mechanism a species survival a disease.

I can call it a medical condition. Even a dangerous medical condition.

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Breathing could kill you to!

Breathing does not kill anyone, unless there is poison in the air.
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Yes, you are less likely to die from abortion, you are also significantly less likely to die when you sit on your ass instead of doing something heroic (like going into fires, standing up to armed attacks, pushing old lady out from in front of cars ect.), though I can't find any precise statistics on heroism.

heroism or inaction is a choice.
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Not to mention that there is nearly a 10 times, in the very least more than 5 times, greater chance a fetus will die if you go with an abortion than follow through with the pregnancy. :P

The zef doesn't get a choice, since it's using the woman's body without her permission.
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Oh, and your claim about pregnancy only sometimes resulting in a genetically unique organism is more or less false: a genetically unique organism is created at conception, which could be said to be the start of pregnancy.

You are correct that conception is when a genetically unique 2n organism is created, but it is not the start of pregnancy. Pregnancy starts when the zygote implants in the uterus, which less than half of them do.
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when you are getting that picky, but birth does not magically turn a fetus into a unique organism.

Presumably you mean "genetically unique." No, it turns it into an organism capable of its own homeostasis.
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Never said it was healthy to not want to be breathing, but it's the belief, not the fact that you are breathing, that's considered a disease. By extension, I guess not wanting to get pregnant is a disease. :P (jk).

Only if you consider pregnancy to be always healthy, normal, comfortable, mundane, routine, life-sustaining and good for the woman in question.
None of which it is.



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11 Dec 2013, 6:34 am

LKL wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
You are much older than me, so you've had much more time to change your lifestyle. However, what we do is irrelevant as debates are about our points, not us. You are also apparently a libertarian, I do not subscribe to libertarian philosophy, especially when I believe an catastrophe can be avoided.

actually, I've been a vegetarian (with occasional brief lapses) since 1995. Also, I'm a socialist. :D
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Yes. They should be forced to [donate a chunk of their liver]. :P You really think someone should be allowed to die just because someone doesn't want to bother being cut open?

Yes. I don't think that anyone's brief life is worth the bodily autonomy of another person. I find the idea of forcibly using someone's body revolting, basically the same thing as slavery if not worse: 'I will take this labor/liver/blood supply/womb from you, and there is nothing you can do about it.' It strikes me on such a visceral level as morally evil that it's hard to even articulate.
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Also, embryos aren't disorganized lumps of tissue, they lack developed morphology, but they are incredibly organized, and unlike brain dead person their functioning is going to increase in the future. You also can't be assured that sentience is completely lacked.

Yeah, actually they are (at least at the stage when most abortions occur) and yeah, actually I can. I've studied enough biology, and dissected enough brains (and whole organisms), to have a pretty good idea of how much organization is there and how much neurological function it takes to have some sort of sentience and sapience. Zefs don't even function on the level of a salmon until the 3rd trimester.
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Does the definite autonomy of a single individual versus potentially a different group really matter in a life or death moral decision? Either way the baby is dependent, and it should be cared for.

Again, you're saying something that belies a world view so completely foreign to what I consider morally correct that it's hard to even believe that's what you're saying, even though the wording is quite clear. Of course it matters. It's like the difference between having a ball-and-chain attached to your ankle, and a backpack that you can take off and hand to another person sometimes. One is a punishment; the other is a choice.


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Say a woman goes into labor, is it okay for her to get an abortion rather than go through birth at that point? After-all, the baby hasn't technically been born yet.
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When you have any evidence that this actually happens on any statistical level involving medical staff who are not sociopaths, and women who are not sociopaths, I will consider it relevant. Until then, you have no point.

It has as much of a point as your exploded liver example. The point is that you are admitting that birth is not as absolute of a line as you proclaimed.

Personally, I'm ok with the extant restrictions on 3rd trimester abortions (life & health of the mother, fetal abnormality), in large part because of that neurological development that I previously mentioned. Birth is still the dividing line, where the fetus goes from being inside the woman and dependent on her body, to being outside of it and using its own heart, lungs, kidneys, etc; at the point of labor, though, actually giving birth is going to be the safest way to get the fetus out.
To me, the point of an abortion is to 'not go through pregnancy, labor, and childbirth,' so waiting 9 months and starting labor sort of makes the abortion a moot point.


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Might as well argue it's okay to kill diabetics because they can't naturally regulate their insulin levels.
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If being a diabetic involved forcing another person to donate their pancreas for the manufacture of insulin, then yes: I would argue that the second person had the right to remove themselves at will as a life-support mechanism. Humans are not machines to be used by other organisms, regardless of the stage of development or the personhood in question.
False analogy as donating ones pancreas would leave one without a pancreas themselves. If there were no long term harm and only a single person is a viable donor, then yes, they should be forced to donate if the diabetic person demands it. I say ones control over their LIFE is more important than the control of their BODY.

Well, clearly I disagree.
People are dying for lack of livers, bone marrow, and kidneys every day; why don't we forcibly establish a donor registry that every citizen must participate in, and take one kidney, some marrow, and a third of a liver from everyone, so that those who need kidneys, marrow, or livers to survive don't die on the waiting list? It would save hundreds or thousands of lives every year, and very few people would die in the donation process or suffer from any long-term harm. Hell, why not mandate biannual blood donations from everyone who is an acceptable donor?
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The humanity argument you are making is irrelevant as by human I wasn't referring to biologically human, but to being "people".

I don't think zefs are people.
Doesn't matter what you think, other people think that they are and you can't kill something just on the grounds that you don't think it deserves rights.

Yeah, it actually does matter what I think, since you don't get to impose your views on the rest of the world any more than you get to take a kidney from me even if you need it more than I do.

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why? They're both medical conditions, and for a woman who didn't want to get pregnant, the diagnosis can be just as devastating to hear.

They're both medical conditions?! Equivocation! I might as say Jesus and Satan are comparable because they are both angels.
Heck, by that logic BREATHING is a medical condition.

No; abnormal breathing and insufficient oxygenation is a medical condition. Breathing is the normal state of a healthy mammal.
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...pregnancy does not qualify as it is not an abnormal state characteristic of dysfunction of the nature bodily functions, quite the opposite. It's a symptom the body is working as intended.

Intended!?
By whom? Obviously not by the woman in question, if she's seeking an abortion. Cancer is natural, too. Everything dies of something, naturally. Lots of women used to die of pregnancy and childbirth, and even if they have 'normal' pregnancies, they're often pretty goddamn miserable for 9 months.
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Lung cancer kills, pregnancy creates life.

You are incorrect; lung cancer sometimes kills. Pregnancy sometimes continues life in a genetically unique organism, and sometimes also kills or maims the woman in question. First-trimester abortion is ten times less likely to result in death of the woman than going through full-term pregnancy and childbirth.
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With the view of life as sacred it's abhorrent to compare the two, and it doesn't take religion to have such beliefs. Oh, and yes, finding out you are breathing could be devastating for someone who wanted to stop breathing. :P

That would be the medical condition known as 'suicidal ideation.'

All your making it sound like to me is people who get abortions are sexually inexperienced whiners. And WTF is a zef? Abortion is actually more dangerous to the mother than giving birth is, any abortion. Abortion is the most abnormal way to take care of it. Infection, infertility, and death are all raised as a chance drastically when getting an abortion. Half birth is one of the most sick ones I've seen yet. It is healthier for the Woman with what you call a 'zef', to give birth than to ever get an abortion. Fear of taking one of natures gift (god's gifts) and treating it like trash is your business, yes, but this thing you call a 'zef' is still living, made out of human cells, and is living. It doesn't matter if it is a parasite, it is still human. A woman's embryos are human, how could what you call a 'zef' not be?


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11 Dec 2013, 6:45 am

LKL wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
LKL wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
You are much older than me, so you've had much more time to change your lifestyle. However, what we do is irrelevant as debates are about our points, not us. You are also apparently a libertarian, I do not subscribe to libertarian philosophy, especially when I believe an catastrophe can be avoided.

actually, I've been a vegetarian (with occasional brief lapses) since 1995. Also, I'm a socialist. :D

Hey, you still would have been older than me. I've been vegetarian sense I've been born with daily lapses. I guess I must be RADICALLY socialist. :P

I guess I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. What was your point, exactly?

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And you don't find just leaving someone to die when you can easily save them to be morally evil?

Applying my health care talents to helping someone is a far cry from forcing me to donate part of my body to them.
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I don't think it would be as bad as slavery as slavery is control over one's labors and efforts and time, not just their tissues.

What, you don't think that the surgery to cut someone's kidney/liver out, and then to recover from that, counts as time and effort? You don't think that pregnancy counts as time and effort? Not to mention a pretty significant amount of pain and suffering.

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Pregnancy isn't control over a woman's body, that's the natural process of things

Yeah, actually it is. The zef takes over a woman's body pretty damn effectively.

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Rather, abortion is violates the fetuses rights over it's own body AND it's life.

Even a born human does not have the right to use another person's body without their permission, much less an unformed zef. If someone were to try to take my liver without my permission, I would be well within my rights to kill them, no matter how much they needed it.

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The difference between cutting open a guy to take out his liver and NOT cutting open a woman to take out a fetus is pretty f***ing obvious.

Abortion, unlike c-sections, do not require 'cutting a woman open.' That's part of why it's safer.
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I don't think abortions should just be handed out on the whim.

Baka. Do you really f***ing think that women do this casually? It's surgery. From what I hear, it really f***ing hurts. I've heard that in some cultures abortion is used as the primary means of birth control, but I have to think that it's pure ignorance and/or the lack of availability of other forms of birth control that make it so, because swallowing a pill every day must hurt a hell of a lot less.
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Um, most abortions occur after 6 weeks. By then it looks like this {snip pic}

That pic is a little bit advanced, actually, wikipedia notwithstanding.
http://php.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/i ... ent#Week_6

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It's clearly organized, it even has proto-toes. Even a morula is more organized than it appears as the cells are loosly organized based on what they are going to ultimately develop into.

The level of 'organization' present at that stage is negligible, despite the appearance of 'toes' (no, they're not actually toes, even at 8 weeks).
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Oh, you dissected brains, good for you, tell, how do you know what it's feeling with so much brain? You literally can't determine sentience for anything, it's a philosophical dilemma.

It's impossible to determine with precision, but it's quite possible to have a fair degree of accuracy. We can look at neurological organization and compare it to the complexity of animal behavior as brains get more and more complex; like I said, a zef isn't even at the level of a fish until the 3rd trimester. EEGs corroborate this conclusion. Things just aren't connected up enough until then.
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It's like killing a guy while he is unconscious during surgery because you got tired of performing the operation. He isn't aware at the moment, but he certainly would have been shortly if you didn't freaking kill him.

No, it's like killing an unconscious guy who's physically hooked up to your body and preventing you from living your life, and will be stuck on you for 9 months.
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Let me phrase it this way: it doesn't matter if you a carry a backpack or an iron ball if you are going to use it to justify killing a baby.

It's not a f***ing "baby." It's a non-sentient, non-sapient zef, using your body without your permission.
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(And pregnancy is not a punishment, stop living in that mindset. Just because you don't like something and you have to live with it doesn't mean it's a punishment. By your logic it magically stops being a punishment and becomes a choice once the baby is born.

It stops being a punishment when and if the woman in question starts wanting it. Once it's born, she can hand it over to CPS or to an adoption agency, and do her best to forget about it, if she doesn't want it.
Pregnancy is one of the greatest gifts that one person can give to another, but without it being a gift given to that person by choice, it becomes a theft of the greatest magnitude instead. It's not a walk in the park.
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And I say if there is no complications you might as well go through with the 9 months. It's a life experience. :P

It's a miserable grueling experience that saps your body so seriously that it literally takes years to recover, and may never be recovered from completely. It's not unusual for women to have permanent physiological damage from pregnancy and childbirth, and I'm not talking about stretch marks or other cosmetic issues.
Funny how pro-life people always end up minimizing the experience of pregnancy and childbirth, every single goddamn thread we go through.

Quote:
Quote:
People are dying for lack of livers, bone marrow, and kidneys every day; why don't we forcibly establish a donor registry that every citizen must participate in, and take one kidney, some marrow, and a third of a liver from everyone, so that those who need kidneys, marrow, or livers to survive don't die on the waiting list? It would save hundreds or thousands of lives every year, and very few people would die in the donation process or suffer from any long-term harm. Hell, why not mandate biannual blood donations from everyone who is an acceptable donor?

I think that would be a great idea. :P Anyway, the key difference is this clause: "only a single person is a viable donor".

Ever heard of tissue typing? You can't just take a liver from any random person and stick it into a person. That's part of why waiting for an organ takes so long. Right now, there might be someone out there who you're the only perfect tissue match for, and who will die if you don't happen to liquefy your brain in a motorcycle accident in the next moth or so.
To be clear, I'm a registered organ donor, but it only happens once I'm brain-dead and have no interest in using the parts any more.
Quote:
And what makes you the arbitor of who and who is not a person? That's why your personal views don't matter, mine don't either.

Democracy.
Quote:
Oh, and what's with the term zef, where did that come from? It sounds like a racial slur. Hey, you were a zef once too! :P

Zygote/Embryo/Fetus. Accounts for the entire span of development from fertilization through birth. If you're not one of those, "it's a person from fertilization!" people, then the relevant term would be 'ef.'
I wouldn't exactly say that I was a zef once, any more than I would say that I was an ovum and/or a spermatozoan once; rather, there once existed a zef which eventually became me.
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Quote:
Breathing is the normal state of a healthy mammal.


Pregnancy isn't a medical condition either if you are going to go by that definition. It's also a normal state of a healthy mammal. As I said, equivocation.

No, actually, pregnancy is not the normal state of a healthy mammal. The fact that it happens on accident does not make it "normal," it makes it "common."
Quote:
It is not up for the individual to decide what is or is not a disease...

The medical community considers pregnancy a medical condition requiring close monitoring, periodic blood draws, frequent office visits, and often other (uncomfortable) tests as well, not to mention a suite of special behaviors that the woman is advised to perform in order to make sure everything goes as smoothly as possible. All of the extra care and monitoring is part of why women don't experience the common condition of death in childbirth as frequently as they used to.

Quote:
I want you to go up to every expecting mother you see and tell them they are diseased, I think they will like.

If they want the zef, they'll agree that they should be getting adequate prenatal care. If they don't want it, the'll be likely to decline the prenatal care and possibly call it something worse than 'disease.'

Quote:
Pregnancy is REQUIRED for a species survival...

It's required for humans, yes. Your language is very imprecise.
Quote:
...you're mom was once pregnant, otherwise you wouldn't have been born.

My mother was pro-choice. I'm glad to know that I was wanted, and not something that she eventually convinced herself to 'accept.'
Quote:
You can hardly call a essential mechanism a species survival a disease.

I can call it a medical condition. Even a dangerous medical condition.

Quote:
Breathing could kill you to!

Breathing does not kill anyone, unless there is poison in the air.
Quote:
Yes, you are less likely to die from abortion, you are also significantly less likely to die when you sit on your ass instead of doing something heroic (like going into fires, standing up to armed attacks, pushing old lady out from in front of cars ect.), though I can't find any precise statistics on heroism.

heroism or inaction is a choice.
Quote:
Not to mention that there is nearly a 10 times, in the very least more than 5 times, greater chance a fetus will die if you go with an abortion than follow through with the pregnancy. :P

The zef doesn't get a choice, since it's using the woman's body without her permission.
Quote:
Oh, and your claim about pregnancy only sometimes resulting in a genetically unique organism is more or less false: a genetically unique organism is created at conception, which could be said to be the start of pregnancy.

You are correct that conception is when a genetically unique 2n organism is created, but it is not the start of pregnancy. Pregnancy starts when the zygote implants in the uterus, which less than half of them do.
Quote:
when you are getting that picky, but birth does not magically turn a fetus into a unique organism.

Presumably you mean "genetically unique." No, it turns it into an organism capable of its own homeostasis.
Quote:
Never said it was healthy to not want to be breathing, but it's the belief, not the fact that you are breathing, that's considered a disease. By extension, I guess not wanting to get pregnant is a disease. :P (jk).

Only if you consider pregnancy to be always healthy, normal, comfortable, mundane, routine, life-sustaining and good for the woman in question.
None of which it is.[/quote]
So risking yourself for another living thing is completely ludacris? My bed isn't comfortable, it must be a disease. Female apache attack heilo pilots must be a disease too, because it obviously isn't healthy, routine, normal, mundane or life sustaining to get blown up by an rpg.
If that were all true, why am I able to bear being asperger's ridden and lonely? I must have a disease, why don't I go get myself aborted too. Oh yeah the homeless must be a disease as well.


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11 Dec 2013, 6:52 am

Yes I do reason being it is the womans choice and her body next off I think it is even worse to force a woman to give birth to a child of a father thats raped her. How is the mother going to explain who his or her daddy is? Not to mention the kid is going to be a living reminder of a result of a man taking advantage of the woman and violating her against her will for the rest of her life! I am no woman but think about it, its common f**kin sense! If I was a woman and raped hell yeah I would get an abortion! How would you like to be a child reminded that your father is a rapist?If I was a child reminded that my father was a rapist I would be depressed for the rest of my life hate my father then probably kill myself!


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11 Dec 2013, 7:03 am

Ganondox wrote:
Um, most abortions occur after 6 weeks. By then it looks like this: [pic]

Can I have that Embryo Laminated in a Keychain?


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11 Dec 2013, 7:10 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
Yes I do reason being it is the womans choice and her body next off I think it is even worse to force a woman to give birth to a child of a father thats raped her. How is the mother going to explain who his or her daddy is? Not to mention the kid is going to be a living reminder of a result of a man taking advantage of the woman and violating her against her will for the rest of her life! I am no woman but think about it, its common f**kin sense! If I was a woman and raped hell yeah I would get an abortion! How would you like to be a child reminded that your father is a rapist?If I was a child reminded that my father was a rapist I would be depressed for the rest of my life hate my father then probably kill myself!

Yeah, you finally brought up suicide didn't you? I expected this was the mindset of a lot of pro choicers. I have SAD, doesn't mean I am going to try to kill myself everytime I feel depressed. I play zombie killing games and watch movies.
Plus, if she is getting raped, she can kill the bastard, she has a right to defend herself!


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11 Dec 2013, 7:13 am

Yeah but the bible states thou shalt not kill plus blaming the victim for being raped makes things worse! Not all women are capable of defending themselves against a 200+ lb man unless she has a gun!


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11 Dec 2013, 7:14 am

appletheclown wrote:
Abortion is actually more dangerous to the mother than giving birth is, any abortion. Abortion is the most abnormal way to take care of it. Infection, infertility, and death are all raised as a chance drastically when getting an abortion. Half birth is one of the most sick ones I've seen yet. It is healthier for the Woman with what you call a 'zef', to give birth than to ever get an abortion.

Incorrect.

The health risks of abortion are significantly lower than the health risks of pregnancy.

*Illegal* (unsafe) abortions are risky, of course, but this risk can easily be reduced by making abortion legal and easily available. Maternal death rates in South Africa dropped by 90 percent after abortion was legalized in 1996.

Sources:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271
http://arhp.org/uploadDocs/journaleditorialmar2005.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15713153


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Last edited by GGPViper on 11 Dec 2013, 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Dec 2013, 7:19 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
Yeah but the bible states thou shalt not kill plus blaming the victim for being raped makes things worse! Not all women are capable of defending themselves against a 200+ lb man unless she has a gun!

I never blamed the victim, thanks for implicating that. I said if some one is raping her, she is allowed to kill them in self defence. emphasis on THE RIGHT TO DO SO. Rapists deserve to be shot by their victims. And the bible says "thou shall not kill", not "thou shall save a life or kill or any combination of the two".


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11 Dec 2013, 7:25 am

GGPViper wrote:
appletheclown wrote:
Abortion is actually more dangerous to the mother than giving birth is, any abortion. Abortion is the most abnormal way to take care of it. Infection, infertility, and death are all raised as a chance drastically when getting an abortion. Half birth is one of the most sick ones I've seen yet. It is healthier for the Woman with what you call a 'zef', to give birth than to ever get an abortion.

Incorrect.

The health risks of abortion are significantly lower than the health risks of pregnancy.

*Illegal* (unsafe) abortions are risky, of course, but this risk can easily be reduced by making abortion legal and easily available. Maternal death rates in South Africa dropped by 90 percent after abortion was legalized in 1996.

Sources:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270271
http://arhp.org/uploadDocs/journaleditorialmar2005.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15713153

Death rates of the older women who already had a life, plus if they hadn't been getting illegal abortions, those deaths would not have happened. Interesting two of your sources come from a government source, and none from a private lab or hospital. The only slightly valid but completely biased link is to a co op of doctors whom share opinions on everything.
Illeagl abortions are not the same as going through with a pregnancy, why is this even one of your examples?


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