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Ganondox
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18 Dec 2013, 9:17 am

Mamselle wrote:
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I meant what I said and I said what I meant.


An elephant's faithful, one hundred percent. ;)

Incidentally, that percentage is the same with regard to abortion that is none of your business if it's not your womb.


I wonder what your stance on drug use and circumcision is.


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AspieOtaku
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18 Dec 2013, 9:42 am

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sonofghandi
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18 Dec 2013, 10:30 am

Ganondox wrote:
I wonder what your stance on drug use and circumcision is.


What does that have to do with anything?


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Mamselle
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18 Dec 2013, 1:21 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
I wonder what your stance on drug use and circumcision is.


What does that have to do with anything?


Just the usual cheap way to try and divert the conversation. If I said mothers who get their three-year-old daughters' ears pierced should be put to death, he'd probably be thrilled. :lol:



Ganondox
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19 Dec 2013, 10:50 am

Mamselle wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
I wonder what your stance on drug use and circumcision is.


What does that have to do with anything?


Just the usual cheap way to try and divert the conversation. If I said mothers who get their three-year-old daughters' ears pierced should be put to death, he'd probably be thrilled. :lol:


Answer the freaking question. You are just diverting as well. And a death penalty for piercing an ear lobe is just ridiculous, we all know that.


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sonofghandi
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19 Dec 2013, 11:56 am

Ganondox wrote:
Mamselle wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
I wonder what your stance on drug use and circumcision is.


What does that have to do with anything?


Just the usual cheap way to try and divert the conversation. If I said mothers who get their three-year-old daughters' ears pierced should be put to death, he'd probably be thrilled. :lol:


Answer the freaking question. You are just diverting as well. And a death penalty for piercing an ear lobe is just ridiculous, we all know that.


Personally, in terms of drug use and circumcision, I don't think it is any of my business (or anyone else's who is not involved). As long as you aren't breaking the law, do it if you want.


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AngelRho
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19 Dec 2013, 1:04 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
Mamselle wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
I wonder what your stance on drug use and circumcision is.


What does that have to do with anything?


Just the usual cheap way to try and divert the conversation. If I said mothers who get their three-year-old daughters' ears pierced should be put to death, he'd probably be thrilled. :lol:


Answer the freaking question. You are just diverting as well. And a death penalty for piercing an ear lobe is just ridiculous, we all know that.


Personally, in terms of drug use and circumcision, I don't think it is any of my business (or anyone else's who is not involved). As long as you aren't breaking the law, do it if you want.

OK, so if abortion were against the law, you'd be against it, too?



sonofghandi
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19 Dec 2013, 1:27 pm

AngelRho wrote:
OK, so if abortion were against the law, you'd be against it, too?


Absolutely. I would still believe that abortion being illegal would have significantly larger negative effects than positive overall, but I would definitely be deadset against it if it were outlawed.

My personal moral beliefs are overidden by my belief in the necessity of law and order on many subjects. Law always takes precedent.


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19 Dec 2013, 3:53 pm

Ganondox wrote:
Mamselle wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
I wonder what your stance on drug use and circumcision is.


What does that have to do with anything?


Just the usual cheap way to try and divert the conversation. If I said mothers who get their three-year-old daughters' ears pierced should be put to death, he'd probably be thrilled. :lol:


Answer the freaking question. You are just diverting as well. And a death penalty for piercing an ear lobe is just ridiculous, we all know that.


Good to see that you realize what you were doing. And do you really want to know a Jewish mother's stance on circumcision? :lol:



LKL
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20 Dec 2013, 7:54 am

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How the hell does surviving without a host make it worse to kill them suddenly? That's perverted morality. IMO this is a bit absurd, but it would actually be less moral to kill the dependent as they are at a disadvantage.

It's perverted that you don't think that the welfare or self-control of the host matter more than an unformed bunch of semi-differentiated tissues.

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LKL wrote:
Vex brought up 'dude judges' because dude judges, dude legislators, and just all-around dudes are always the ones trying to take away women's rights to bodily autonomy.

Can you provide any actual evidence that the "pro-life" side is in fact male dominated?

According to the 2012 Gallup poll, men are significantly more likely to call themselves 'pro-life' than women are. Here are some more resources:
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/05 ... vent-men/#
http://feministsforchoice.com/my-body-y ... bodies.htm
With very few exceptions (from Texas and/or Alaska), pro-life bills are put forward and advocated for by men in the US. With very few exceptions, the people I meet who are fanatically pro-choice both IRL and on the internet are men. Sometimes one sees women demonstrating outside of clinics, but they're not the ones foaming at the mouth over the issue. If someone says that pregnancy is 'just a temporary inconvenience,' it's pretty much always a male.
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"This entire discussion is about whether or not one organism has the right to use another organism's body." No, it's not, that's what the "pro-choice" side frames it as. The "pro-life" sides frames it as "the entire discussion is about whether it's one organism has the right to take the life of another organism in order to reduce the first organisms hardships."

Do you really think that having your bodily functions almost completely taken over by another organism without your permission just amounts to a minor, temporary "hardship"?
See above.
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Unless you are a fan of corporeal punishment you don't kill someone for breaking the law, you give them the appropriate punishment.

If a human being tried to rape me or otherwise use my body without my permission, I would kill them. And I would be found legally justified in doing so.
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...it can only be argued the baby was given implicit consent to exist...

only if you start out with the assumption that sex is only about reproduction.
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...the baby couldn't give consent itself, so by default it get's what it needs to survive as that's what happens when someone cannot give consent.

:roll: It's the woman that needs to give consent, not the zef.
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... the "zef" is not violating anything by existing.

yes, it is. That is the entire point.
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It's not like you haven't done any debating of semantics. Anyway, it's not just being of the same species, that's actually less important. Here is a further explanation: http://www.cephalopodiatrist.com/2012/1 ... sites.html

That's a fairly complex evolutionary argument, but it makes the unjustified assumption that a baby born to any father at any stage of a woman's life is an equal fitness boost to any other baby born to any other father at any other stage of her life. Pregnancy and childbirth tremendously sap a woman's health and energy; subsequent pregnancies tend to produce lower birth weights and more birth defects for 4-5 years after an initial pregnancy, and most women will not produce more than two or three offspring (in the US). All of their eggs are literally in 2 or 3 baskets. In addition, women who give birth in their teens are less likely to have successful offspring than women who delay childbirth into their 20s, even if they have the same total number of offspring. These facts are illustrated by the fact that females (or males, if the male is the primary caretaker in a given species) of many species across many taxa either re-absorb zefs, abandon offspring, or kill and eat offspring that are born during inopportune conditions. Note that I am not saying that this is good; I am saying that it is incorrect to claim that any given offspring, or any given pregnancy, advances an individual woman's evolutionary fitness.
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And no, a 10th male angler is not a parasite for the same reasons, but I'm going to assume that if you made a sliding scale of parascity it would be slightly more parasitic in nature due to it's method of genesis relative to the female angler.

The 10th male is parasitic not because of where he came from, but because he is entirely unnecessary to the female anglerfish.
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Yes, it will technically cease to be a zygote before it reaches the uterine wall so zygotes won't aborted by that logic, but that's not the point. The point is that while it's still a blob of cells no intentional abortions are going to take place because no one is going to intend to abort as they don't know they are pregnant, when people are deciding to abort the embryo is usually a bit more developed. Spontaneous abortion is not the subject of debate.

Just because there are germ layers and primitive tissues doesn't mean that it's not still a blob. It doesn't even have the neurological function of the prototypical blob organism, the jellyfish.
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I meant what I said and I said what I meant. The heart and CNS do in fact start development during the 3rd week. Obviously it's not a properly working CNS and circulatory system at that point, I never claimed that. The point is that it's more developed than a blob of cells, blobs of cells don't have pharyngeal arches. :P

Then you have a very different definition than I do of 'begin' and 'blob.'
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Also? It matters not a whit that I can't 'feel' what it's like to be a fly; I can 'feel' what it's like to be a zef for most of its development, though, when I'm unconscious asleep and not dreaming. That is to say, a zef does not have the processing power to even be as conscious as a fly. When I see someone's brains leaking out their ears, I don't have to be inside their head to know that they're dead; likewise, when I see that the neurons don't exist, or that they're not connected, I don't have to be inside a zef's head to know that it's not sentient.

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You obviously aren't very versed in philosophy as you don't seem to understand the question of minds and the preposition here.

No, I've heard that 'philosophical' argument many times; I just don't give a damn. Every single shred of evidence that has ever been produced shows that sentience and sapience arises from functioning, organized neurological tissues, and zefs don't have that until the 3rd trimester. Arguments like that are what drive my contempt for much of philosophy.
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I'm sure you wouldn't want to be aborted while unconscious during sleep. Yes, you have memories the zef doesn't have as you have been awake, but still, does that automatically make it right?

If I was unconscious and hooked up to another person's body without their permission, then what I 'wanted' would have absolutely no relevance whatsoever.



JohnHobson
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21 Dec 2013, 1:32 pm

I have known women who have become pregnant from being raped. Without exception, every one of them wanted an abortion.


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