Verdandi wrote:
Troy_Guther wrote:
As for my comments about racism against blacks in the US, what I said was that prejudice and discrimination will always be leveled by the majority against minorities, regardless of context. In reality, minorities often have equally strong prejudices against the majority, but they do not have to power to enforce those prejudices in the form of law, as the majority does. Discrimination against blacks in the Americas was and is particularly egregious, in large part because of the state of the world during colonial times. As I stated before, the powerful will always demonize and exploit the powerless, and during the early colonial period, predominantly white western European nations were wealthy and powerful, while predominantly black western and south African nations were weak and destitute.
Is this true? But look, the wealthiest people in the US are a significant minority. Like 1% of the population holds more wealth than the majority of the rest of the country. Where is the discrimination and prejudice being directed at them? As opposed to poor people or disabled people or others who vastly outnumber them but are treated to significant amounts of prejudice because of economic hardship that they do not experience.
Oh, there isn't any because they've been bribing politicians for years to gear the United States to their whims. Your premise is flawed because you ignore things like power relations, history, or offer false historical narratives, like
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during the early colonial period, predominantly white western European nations were wealthy and powerful, while predominantly black western and south African nations were weak and destitute.
I do not think it is true that these groups (which you insist on calling minorities, but come on - women are widely discriminated against and make up 51% of the population) hold similarly prejudiced views about the privileged (not always the majority). Rather, there's another concept here that you should look up - W.E.B. DuBois' concept of double consciousness. The difference between the privileged and the oppressed is that privileged people have power over those they oppress and have no need to understand or accept or even think about those oppressed groups, no matter how numerous they are. On the other hand, if you find oppressed people who express negative views about privileged groups, you will find that such attitudes are frequently informed by experience,
not prejudice.
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That is, unequivocally, the biggest reason that blacks were slaves and whites were slave owners. The dynamic has played out the same, regardless of where in the world it took place, or in what time period. The strong demonize and exploit the weak. And the strong do not necessarily have to be a numerical majority either, they only need to control the majority of power. Apartheid in South Africa is a great example of a numerical minority oppressing a numerical majority. The patriarchal standard of men controlling women is another. If the circumstances of history had been different; if black nations were colonizing the Americas while white nations were simply scrounging for enough for food to survive, you had better believe that those black colonists would have taken some white slaves with them.
There has never been in the history of the world another situation that remotely resembles the triangle trade that enslaved incredible numbers of black people. There has never been a situation in the history of the world where so many people were taken, crammed into ships, and taken far away where they were treated as less than animals. That is a unique period in human history. Yes, slavery did exist elsewhere, but not like this. Not to the scale of cultural and colonial genocide that Europeans brought to the task.
And it is ridiculous to discuss a hypothetical like that which never happened, because of the reality of what
did happen.
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To disagree is to say that there is something fundamentally different about black people vs. white people. And that would make you the racist, not me.
This is terrible, really. This isn't a real argument. You're just trying to manipulate me into agreeing with you. This doesn't change the fact that you initially asserted that black people are discriminated against primarily and solely because they are a minority in comparison to white people. This is simply false. I mean I am glad you can talk about what actually happened with maybe 50% accuracy, but you're still justifying sh**, and this terrible argument trying to draw a false equivalency between Europeans who enslaved millions of African people and the African people who were enslaved by proposing a situation that never happened, and disagreeing with you would make
me racist? Damn.
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PS. The line, "All men are created equal.", was written by a group of white slave owners who thought women were unfit to vote. Take from that what you will.
Yes, I know. That was part of my point.
Like I've already said multiple times, when I say minority, I mean power minority. I even spent a considerable amount of space discussing exactly this point, just a few posts ago. Either you didn't read it, or didn't care. Regardless, I made it very clear that a numerical minority is more than capable, and willing, to oppress a numerical majority, provided this numerical minority has the power necessary to do so. As for the richest among us not having prejudice directed at them: What country have you been living in? What do you think Occupy Wall Street was about? The mega rich, and the corporations they run are one of the most hated groups in this country. Problem is, the people who hate them don't have the power to make their hatred felt in any meaningful way. What you said about privilege is absolutely right; the rich and powerful just can't be assed to care about the poor, because they don't have to.
And yes, the triangle trade was a particularly contemptible part of human history. I'm just not convinced that which race was on which side really mattered. At the very least, you seem to imply that there is some factor unique to white people that makes them especially cruel and evil. I'm convinced that all races are basically equal. Why the hell am I the racist in this situation?
As for slavery as a whole, I don't understand why you're painting me as some sort of slavery apologist. Never, in this entire dialogue, have I said, or even implied, that because blacks would have done the same thing had the situations reversed, therefore, whites enslaving people was okay. Enslavement of other human beings is easily amongst the most vile things humans can do to one another, and is never justified, regardless of context. I'm just not willing condemn whites as a whole because, through accident of history, they were the ones in position to most easily enforce their will upon others. They took the opportunities they were given, as any other group would have. To deny is to say that there is something fundamentally different about whites, which is the very definition of racism.
And for your final point that it is unnatural for humans to dehumanize, demonize, and oppress others; Let's examine that, shall we? On my side, I have every human society that has ever existed on this planet, and you have, what, exactly? A magical land where people don't demonize those they dislike and disagree with? A mystical realm where the rich don't take advantage of the poor? A special place where not following social norms is no big deal? I'm gonna need a little help here, because I can't seem to find it on any maps.
04 Jan 2014, 11:35 pm
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