why do some people consider low functioning inferior ?

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what exactly is wrong with communism?

sorry... i know it's a hijack, i just had to ask.

Troy_Guther, If you state that disability is inferior, if all else is equal, is black skin still inferior, if all else is equal?

Did black people rise from their inferiority by removing from them the perceived attributes of inferiority? Was it rather that the perceived white superiority started to fade as the social and societal structures maintaining this mental perception of superiority started to crumble?

Inferiority when it comes to groupings of people is a larger structure that is unconsciously absorbed, maintained and passed on in the culture. These social, often implicate structures in turn lead to individual mental structures that steer perception. Our perception follows them as unconsciously as we would have likely followed our “innate” white supremacy back in the days. We don't learn unconsciously just language and habits, but a lot more...

In the worst case the concept of inferiority is used as a justification for questionable actions. While valuing the target of action as inferior this justification preserves a positive self-image in the actor despite the nature of the actions. What other purposes you forumers think these concepts of inferior or superior mainly serve - personally or at large?

Have you seen movies about it or saw what happened to Russia when they did it or Cuba?

you are referring to a political system of dictatorship. true communism is an economic system that is actually only realized in its true form in a democracy. just because someone uses a label, doesn't mean they use it accurately.

Like I said before, I'm not entirely comfortable using the word 'inferior' to describe being black because that would imply that being black is always worse, regardless of any possible context. In this instance, I would use the word disadvantageous; it is disadvantageous to be black. This is because we live in a world where prejudice and discrimination against blacks is especially severe and pervasive, as well as the fact that, being black also means you're much, much more likely to grow up poor. Opportunities to really make something of themselves are far rarer for a black person, with the notable exception of becoming a professional athlete. This is due to a number of factors, with one of the largest being the bigoted, discriminatory attitudes of those that happen to wield the most power and influence, i.e. old white men.

But this is hardly the only reason, or even, in my opinion, the biggest reason that blacks as a whole rarely achieve "traditional" success in the 21st century. Poverty is far more common in black communities, and as such, most blacks don't even have the chance to gain the education needed to really be successful. This is true, regardless of race. So called 'white trash' generally aren't too successful either. Poverty really is a potential inhibitor. However, another factor holding blacks back as a whole is their culture themselves. Advanced education is already elusive for blacks, but it's made even more difficult to obtain by the fact that much of black culture seems to dislike education as a whole, considering things like good attendance and getting good grades as "acting white". Any culture that demonizes the very tools of success isn't going to get very far.

You asked me, if all else is equal, is having black skin still inferior. I would contend that it is not. But all else is not equal. Being a black person on this planet is almost guaranteed to make your life more difficult, whether it's because you're a black person in a racist, western country, or because you're a native African just trying to survive. You are more likely to be successful if you're white, but this is only because of the position that white children find themselves born into at this point in history. Unfortunately, some people interpret this disproportionate level of success by whites as a sign that whites are somehow inherently superior to other races. However, this ignores the fact that, while whites are currently on top, this was little more than an accident in history. This arrangement could have very easily been different, if only a few key events in history had been different. Very early humans could have migrated to different places. Rome might have lost a crucial early battle and never become an empire. And the first mechanical printing press could have been invented in Egypt instead of Germany. It's not a coincidence that the continent that invented the device enabling the spread of literacy eventually became the continent with the most power. Education and knowledge are the gateway to true power.

To answer your second question, I would say that it happened exactly as you described: The perceived white superiority started to fade as the social and societal structures maintaining this mental perception of superiority started to crumble. As society changed in the roughly 100 years between the end of slavery and the Civil Rights act of 1964, more and more Americans were forced to account for the differences between negative black stereotypes and the actual black people they met, knew, and worked with. The incongruity between the prevailing narrative about blacks and actual black people became increasingly apparent over time, to the point where we decided to make laws forbidding discrimination based upon old, inaccurate ideas.

As for your final paragraph, I will freely acknowledge that declaring others inferior has definitely been used to excuse treating them poorly. The Holocaust definitely wouldn't have happened if the idea of Jews=vermin hadn't been so pervasive. But the idea that, because someone is worse than me, I can treat them like s**t just doesn't compute with me. I feel more compassion when I see a homeless person, not less. And the idea of spitting on them as I walk by is utterly unfathomable to me. The responsibility of the strong is to support the weak, not to harass or oppress them. Unfortunately, this mindset is far too uncommon. Life is still viewed by many as a battle, an 'us vs. them' proposition where taking advantage of others just because you can is not only viewed as acceptable, but good business practices. The true measure of a man's character is in how he treats those who can do nothing to him or for him.

Troy_Guther, interesting remarks.

I want to clear the point I made in my previous post a bit. I and if I understood correctly also you see that there are no inferior attributes in black people themselves, but the inferiority consists rather of the surrounding “structure”. The inferior positioning both serves soci(et)al and mental practices and is also maintained in them. We both also admitted that back in the days our mental perception could have been as blindly absorbed from that structure, leading us to feel that there truly is something inferior in black people and thus our position and privileges are innate, attitudes and actions right.

Therefore I ask that couldn’t it be a possibility, that concerning disability you are a part of a similar structure, seeing disabled people rather carrying the inferior attributes in them than them being carried in practices by us all. Propositions such as disability is inferior, if all else is equal, seem to me mentally fabricated and unreal, for if all else is equal has no true value.

I'm not entirely sure what exactly you're asking me. If you're asking me if I think that the struggles of those with disabilities are due to their environment or structures, I must say no. They're called disabilities for a reason; the people who have them simply can't do as much as people without them. This is true, whether we are talking about physical disabilities like lower body paralysis, or mental disabilities like schizophrenia. However, considering where we are having this conversation, I think the most pertinent question is: Are the struggles associated with Aspergers caused by the Aspergers itself, or by the surrounding environment people with AS find themselves in?

I still have to say that the problems are with the condition itself, although living in a world of NT's definitely exacerbates those problems. The NT world could definitely be more accommodating, that's for sure. But the fact that accommodations are even necessary proves that AS is a disability; the struggles of those with AS are very, very real, and this will always be true, regardless of circumstances. In my opinion. a world very the vast majority of people had AS would be, as a whole, worse for everyone.

Sure, there would definitely be some benefits. The world would be a lot more honest, for one. More straightforward too. But there are very good reasons that people constantly lie to each other, and the reason is this: People are really, really sensitive. They simply can't handle much of the truth, whether it's that they're not as smart as they think they are, or that their best friend thinks they're fat. Not to mention that humans as a whole have a very hard time being told no. Whether we say yes but are lying, or simply make excuses, we are very uncomfortable giving straight no's to people. And honest criticism? Forget about it. We live in a world where we have to tell everyone they're beautiful so their self esteem isn't crushed. As much as I hate this fact, lies are a very important part of keeping the peace in everyday life. And aspies just aren't that good at it. Do you really want to know exactly what everyone thinks about you? Because you can bet that's what an aspie world would be like.

For your final sentence, I do agree that the idea "if all else is equal" does seem strange when talking about someone with a disability. A person with AS is who they are in large part because of AS, and it's impossible to truly decouple AS from a person. However, "if all else is equal" only seems strange when we're talking about people who have spent their entire lives with a disability. Someone who is normal and then becomes disabled in some way is entirely different. For example, If I'm a soldier, and during my service I get both my legs blown off by a land mine, I am now inferior to how I was before. This is a very clear case of me being objectively worse, or inferior, to how I was before. But this doesn't just work for physical disabilities, but mental ones as well. Let's suppose I'm a soldier again, but this time I suffer no serious physical injury. Instead, I develop a severe case of post-traumatic stress disorder, which makes my mood unstable and often causes violent outbursts. This is another clear case of where I am now worse, or inferior to my previous self. Even with therapy and medication, my life will now be more difficult because of my new condition, with no discernible positive benefits for myself. This is, by it's very definition, a disability. I would be superior, better, or more valuable without it.

As I pondered all of this, I came to a conclusion that our natural need to make distinctions comes primarily down to our senses that seem to work by catching the differences first and by then proceeding to similarities. You notice this reaction when you walk into familiar scenery and something in it has changed - it stands out almost immediately.

There are plentitude of properties in all people that we could label as similar or different. And from this basic separation our mind seems to then conduct other concepts, such as the inferior and superior discussed in this thread. These concepts are basically just values for the aforementioned differences. These stem from our mind, whether they are based on primal fears or e.g. learned attitudes.

The process of valuing people and things is so intrinsic and unconscious, that it is difficult to catch yourself in the act, let alone change those thinking patterns. But in my opinion alarms should start to ring at least, when the plentitude of human properties is narrowed into one property that starts to represent the multitude of properties and dimensions in one person or group. A bit like you, Troy_Guther, needed to formulate an imaginary state, where all else is equal, to prove your point. This if all else is equal -state would of course require a reality, where you are able to create two clones (for they need to be equal in all of their properties) and then you could cause this state by causing a disability in the other. But that proposition wouldn’t of course still be applicable in this reality, where all people are sums of different properties changing according to every situation and interpreter. This was nicely highlighted by jenisautistic earlier in the thread.

Similarly in my opinion in all this talk about how unfortunate some groups of people are, talkers are unconsciously creating that inferior positioning by judging and valuing some life forms as lesser. For example by stating that native Africans are “just trying to survive”, we implicitly state that living in a natural environment on its terms (war situations and such aside) is in some way more inferior than having a Twitter account, flushing toilet and a fast food restaurant nearby. The summer cottage life practiced in our family that consists of sh*****g in the bushes , carrying your own water, picking berries, doing food on an open fire and so on, is a lot more satisfying form of life to me than anything I have in the city. Just because the properties of a person’s life aren’t necessarily the same as ours, it doesn’t make those properties automatically inferior – same goes with disability. I’ve always perceived myself rather blessed with the mind I got.

I feel that it's pretty safe to say that living in a country where our homes are safe and food is plentiful is infinitely preferable to having to fight for your very survival on a daily basis. I can't imagine anyone would ever choose the latter over the former, if both are options. Hell, the entire reason we have civilization is to provide the security that those who live in western societies take for granted. Sure, some time spent out at a cabin in the woods can be quite serene and satisfying. But living out there was your choice, or rather the choice of your family. If the berries were to somehow disappear, you would hardly be left to starve. And if someone in your family came down with a serious illness, a trip to the hospital would also be possible.

People in Africa struggling to survive don't have those backup options; if their crops fail or their farm animals die, those people very likely die as well. If someone comes down with cholera over there, they're absolutely screwed. Not to mention they also have to worry about roving warlords coming and taking their stuff, raping their women, and enslaving their children. Your family out in your cabin has no such concerns. Really, living out in a cabin in the woods in a modern, developed country is little more than rustic living with the addition of the security that modernity provides.

As for saying that you feel blessed with the mind you have; I'll say this. Good for you! Avoiding feelings of victim-hood and negativity will definitely make your life better. But the struggles you no doubt have due to AS are still very real, even if you feel that the positives outweigh the negatives. Your life would be better without sensory issues, or social difficulties, or whatever issues you may have. The unique perspective that being an aspie gives you can certainly be valuable, but these perspectives are hardly exclusive to us. NT's are more than capable of similar insights. Not with nearly as much regularity, sure. But they don't have the AS specific issues we have either.

Is this true? But look, the wealthiest people in the US are a significant minority. Like 1% of the population holds more wealth than the majority of the rest of the country. Where is the discrimination and prejudice being directed at them? As opposed to poor people or disabled people or others who vastly outnumber them but are treated to significant amounts of prejudice because of economic hardship that they do not experience.

Oh, there isn't any because they've been bribing politicians for years to gear the United States to their whims. Your premise is flawed because you ignore things like power relations, history, or offer false historical narratives, like



I do not think it is true that these groups (which you insist on calling minorities, but come on - women are widely discriminated against and make up 51% of the population) hold similarly prejudiced views about the privileged (not always the majority). Rather, there's another concept here that you should look up - W.E.B. DuBois' concept of double consciousness. The difference between the privileged and the oppressed is that privileged people have power over those they oppress and have no need to understand or accept or even think about those oppressed groups, no matter how numerous they are. On the other hand, if you find oppressed people who express negative views about privileged groups, you will find that such attitudes are frequently informed by experience, not prejudice.



There has never been in the history of the world another situation that remotely resembles the triangle trade that enslaved incredible numbers of black people. There has never been a situation in the history of the world where so many people were taken, crammed into ships, and taken far away where they were treated as less than animals. That is a unique period in human history. Yes, slavery did exist elsewhere, but not like this. Not to the scale of cultural and colonial genocide that Europeans brought to the task.

And it is ridiculous to discuss a hypothetical like that which never happened, because of the reality of what did happen.



This is terrible, really. This isn't a real argument. You're just trying to manipulate me into agreeing with you. This doesn't change the fact that you initially asserted that black people are discriminated against primarily and solely because they are a minority in comparison to white people. This is simply false. I mean I am glad you can talk about what actually happened with maybe 50% accuracy, but you're still justifying s**t, and this terrible argument trying to draw a false equivalency between Europeans who enslaved millions of African people and the African people who were enslaved by proposing a situation that never happened, and disagreeing with you would make me racist? Damn.



Yes, I know. That was part of my point.

One thing that has bothered me is your tendency to refer to opinions you agree with as "intellectually pristine" or other flowery, complimentary phrases, and to refer to opinions you disagree with as "harmful to humanity" and "sorting and grading" and other equally critical or inflammatory phrases.

The way you exalt some perspectives and deride others is quite manipulative.

The thing about Troy is that he hasn't pointed out to me that my thinking is wrong. He has simply dug in his heels and tried to assert he is not racist because he has even more racist rationalizations to justify what he said in the first place, plus I might be racist because I think his example of a hypothetical world where black people enslaved white people in exactly the same way white people enslaved black people is also racist and a false equivalency. Truth is, they had different cultures from Europeans, and their conception of slavery (yes some African nations practiced slavery at the time) was quite different from what happened to black slaves.

But hey, who care when we can pretend it's just natural for humans to dehumanize and demonize and oppress others? I imagine he'll go for evo psych next.

Intellectually pristine? Laughable.

i feel that people don't take me seriously..

Before my daughter was diagnosed and starting special ed at 3, she met a non-verbal 5 year old boy. When they were alone they talked. When someone approach they stopped. They made eye contact with each other but no one else. He came out of his shell while they went to school together. He had never be interested in kids before but loved my daughter.

Opi, Opi, Opi.[shaking head incredulously] Obviously you have not studied the "Holy McCarthyized Corporationist, Better Dead than Red Scriptures." If you had, you would never have asked such a ridiculous question.

If you ever decide to visit me, please give me time to pick up some triple blessed holy water [ can that be picked up in the newly opened retail MJ shops?] to spritz you with before we meet.

I think people on WP take you seriously.
People who understand each other communicate and take each other seriously.

I know how you feel