Do the poor who don't work deserve charity?

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Ganondox
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11 Dec 2013, 2:07 am

Fnord wrote:
While some are homeless because of drug abuse, mental illness, or criminal activity, most of them seem to be trying to make something of themselves and get out of poverty.


Why are the mentally ill being lumped with the drug addicts and criminals as opposed to people trying to make something of themselves?


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beneficii
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11 Dec 2013, 4:54 am

Some more mythbusting:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... th-6388197


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Ganondox
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11 Dec 2013, 6:48 am

Charity is for all, doesn't matter if they work or not.


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The_Walrus
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11 Dec 2013, 7:57 am

Ganondox wrote:
Fnord wrote:
While some are homeless because of drug abuse, mental illness, or criminal activity, most of them seem to be trying to make something of themselves and get out of poverty.


Why are the mentally ill being lumped with the drug addicts and criminals as opposed to people trying to make something of themselves?
I don't think Fnord was necessarily separating the two groups. And it's not like people who are homeless due to drug addiction or past criminal activity never try to make something of themselves.

"Even though some people have severe difficulties, most people try to get out of poverty."



sonofghandi
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11 Dec 2013, 7:59 am

Link to site outlining SNAP (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program)

Quote:
SNAP is heavily focused on the poor. Over 91 percent of SNAP benefits go to households with incomes below the poverty line, and 55 percent goes to households with incomes below half of the poverty line (about $9,500 for a family of three). Also, as explained below, families with the greatest need receive the largest benefits.

These features make SNAP a powerful tool in fighting poverty. A CBPP analysis using the government’s new Supplemental Poverty Measure, which counts SNAP as income, found that SNAP kept 4.7 million people out of poverty in 2011, including 2.1 million children. SNAP lifted 1.5 million children above 50 percent of the poverty line in 2011, more than any other benefit program.

SNAP has also been found to be effective in reducing extreme poverty. A study by the National Poverty Center estimated the number of households in the United Stations earning less than $2 per person per day, which the World Bank defines as “extreme poverty, a classification used in developing nations.” The study found that counting SNAP benefits as income reduced the number of extremely poor families with children in 2011 from 1.46 million to 800,000, and reduced the number of children in extreme poverty in 2011 by half — from 2.8 million to 1.4 million.

With the deep and prolonged recession and weak recovery, SNAP has become increasingly valuable for the long-term unemployed. In 2010, according to the Joint Economic Committee, over 20 percent of those unemployed for more than six months received SNAP benefits, a higher rate than among other adults. SNAP is one of the few resources available for individuals who have exhausted their unemployment benefits. Nearly 25 percent of households in which someone’s unemployment benefits ended were enrolled in SNAP.


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Fnord
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11 Dec 2013, 8:23 am

Ganondox wrote:
Fnord wrote:
While some are homeless because of drug abuse, mental illness, or criminal activity, most of them seem to be trying to make something of themselves and get out of poverty.
Why are the mentally ill being lumped with the drug addicts and criminals as opposed to people trying to make something of themselves?

Because they are unable to get out of poverty, despite their best efforts, as their conditions always seem to drag them back down.

On the other hand, I've met a few people who actually seem to prefer life "off the grid" (no job, homeless, living on handouts), and they seem to be equally divided between those who are "unwilling" and those who are "unable" to get out of poverty.

On the gripping hand, those who want out of poverty deserve all the help they need to become self-sufficient and law-abiding citizens, not with hand-outs, but with counseling, training, coaching, and opportunities. The rest is entirely up to them.



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11 Dec 2013, 9:39 am

There's a lot of truth to the old saying about idle hands.... People who don't have something to do tend to be less happy and indulge in self-destructive behaviors.

In an ideal society everyone capable of working should have something to do. And in return, everyone would be guaranteed adequate housing, nutrition, and access to healthcare.

Our current economy produces enough excess wealth to do this right now. If we were smart, this is what we would be working towards.

We could start by enacting a federally guaranteed minimum income for everyone working 30 hrs/wk (as opposed to a minimum wage).


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sonofghandi
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11 Dec 2013, 9:52 am

GoonSquad wrote:
There's a lot of truth to the old saying about idle hands.... People who don't have something to do tend to be less happy and indulge in self-destructive behaviors.

In an ideal society everyone capable of working should have something to do. And in return, everyone would be guaranteed adequate housing, nutrition, and access to healthcare.

Our current economy produces enough excess wealth to do this right now. If we were smart, this is what we would be working towards.

We could start by enacting a federally guaranteed minimum income for everyone working 30 hrs/wk (as opposed to a minimum wage).


^^^This.

Poverty breeds desperation. Nothing is more dangerous than a desperate hungry person other than a desperate person with hungry kids.


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11 Dec 2013, 10:09 am

thomas81 wrote:
theres a difference between those who don't work out of a malignant attitude and those who don't work for lack of opportunities.


This is everything to me.

If you are poor and struggling to find a job, but trying, you should get help. If your disabled and can't work, you should get help. If you just don't want to work, you shouldn't get help.

If you can't find a job, you should be volunteering. Give something back to the community while you find a job.



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11 Dec 2013, 11:07 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
We're rapidly approaching the point where we can produce plenty for everyone to consume without employing everyone. We don't actually need as many people to work as there are people.

People are just so attached to the Protestant work ethic that they can't see that society no longer needs it.

Obviously, some people can only feel good about themselves by seeing other people that are worse off, but that's another issue.

Abolish work!

Yeah, I'm tired of Protestants shoving the work ethic doctrine down everyone throats, as if more production is better for the environment. I also see it often get used as an excuse for authoritarianism. So and so isn't doing what I tell them to, he/she needs to get a work ethic etc.

Free time is not evil because we are humans and humans are creative animals. People don't need to be told what to do with their lives. If we define work as passion projects, than I don't disagree with work ethic. But more often then not, the work ethic doctrine is used for evil.



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11 Dec 2013, 11:47 am

Some more, this time dealing with a highly marginalized and oppressed group, trans women of color:

http://sfonline.barnard.edu/a-new-queer ... r-women/0/


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pete1061
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11 Dec 2013, 12:09 pm

Welfare is not charity.

Charity is given voluntarily.
Welfare is paid by taxes. Taxes are taken by the government, without choice.


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ArrantPariah
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11 Dec 2013, 12:23 pm

pete1061 wrote:
Welfare is not charity.

Charity is given voluntarily.
Welfare is paid by taxes. Taxes are taken by the government, without choice.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/charity

Full Definition of CHARITY wrote:

1: benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity

2a : generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering; also : aid given to those in need
b : an institution engaged in relief of the poor
c : public provision for the relief of the needy

3a : a gift for public benevolent purposes
b : an institution (as a hospital) founded by such a gift

4: lenient judgment of others


The definition of "charity" does not exclude involuntary transfers.



xenon13
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11 Dec 2013, 6:51 pm

As heir of humanity's inventions including such things as the wheel, the right to a minimum standard of living is more than justified. Why should some more benefit from the discovery of the wheel than others?



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12 Dec 2013, 9:56 am

I don't know that the Protestant (or Puritan) work ethic is completely Protestant (or Puritan), although those groups have gotten credit for it. The fact is, human beings need to feel that they have a purpose in life, some reason to get up in the morning, and a place to be. For a mother raising young children, that could be at home--it doesn't have to be a place AWAY necessarily.

Work provides you with more than a paycheck and a living. It provides you with a sense of importance, an identity. A reason to be.

I think there are far fewer "don't want to work" types than are touted by the folks who want to cut welfare spending. Most people who are dependent on welfare desperately want to work--they just don't have the education and/or skills necessary to earn enough money to live on. People who say "throwing money at the poor" doesn't work, usually forget that if the money thrown is spent on education and training, it is a GOOD investment. To get more people off welfare, we will HAVE to spend money on training, and money on childcare so that caregiving parents can avail themselves of the training.