Jesus Was Liberal, Sadducees and Pharisees, Conservatives

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aghogday
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26 Dec 2013, 1:27 am

TheGoggles wrote:
Image


Well..that also pretty much describes what it's like to be the only non-believer among a crowd of believers..

The only thing is..they got it correct....

And in this case this dude..would be standing in the dark...while everyone around him was seeing light....

But i'm really not sure what context you are using with this...

Lots of different ways per cognitive empathy to understand that..

If one is so pre-disposed to be able to achieve this human ability and skill....


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MCalavera
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26 Dec 2013, 2:22 am

aghogday wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
aghogday wrote:
That have been limited by the patriarchal powers of the Church ever since the true gnostic gospels were hidden from public purview..including the reality that the lead apostle was likely Mary Magdalene not Peter..with even a rivalry going on to keep women down
''in their place' at that time and much farther into the future.....

And nah ya do not get to do that for free to the OP either....

At least not here now....

And yah..i can provide the documentation on Mary Magdalene and the gnostic Gospels if ya like......

this..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdPEW2W-R98[/youtube]


Highly improbable as the earliest texts do not overall mention Mary Magdalene as lead disciple.


Well if ya wanna get educated on that friend..watch the video i provided...the link was broke and i just fixed it....


If you have a transcript I can go through, great. I'm not watching a 50 minute video that I have a strong feeling is based on terrible scholarship for the same reason I don't bother watching the Zeitgeist movies.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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26 Dec 2013, 3:20 am

MCalavera wrote:
aghogday wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
aghogday wrote:
That have been limited by the patriarchal powers of the Church ever since the true gnostic gospels were hidden from public purview..including the reality that the lead apostle was likely Mary Magdalene not Peter..with even a rivalry going on to keep women down
''in their place' at that time and much farther into the future.....

And nah ya do not get to do that for free to the OP either....

At least not here now....

And yah..i can provide the documentation on Mary Magdalene and the gnostic Gospels if ya like......

this..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdPEW2W-R98[/youtube]


Highly improbable as the earliest texts do not overall mention Mary Magdalene as lead disciple.


Well if ya wanna get educated on that friend..watch the video i provided...the link was broke and i just fixed it....


If you have a transcript I can go through, great. I'm not watching a 50 minute video that I have a strong feeling is based on terrible scholarship for the same reason I don't bother watching the Zeitgeist movies.

You should watch the Zeitgeist movies. They are interesting.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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26 Dec 2013, 4:38 am

Now everybody play nice please so my thread doesn't get closed. Thank you! :)



aghogday
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26 Dec 2013, 9:12 am

MCalavera wrote:
aghogday wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
aghogday wrote:
That have been limited by the patriarchal powers of the Church ever since the true gnostic gospels were hidden from public purview..including the reality that the lead apostle was likely Mary Magdalene not Peter..with even a rivalry going on to keep women down
''in their place' at that time and much farther into the future.....

And nah ya do not get to do that for free to the OP either....

At least not here now....

And yah..i can provide the documentation on Mary Magdalene and the gnostic Gospels if ya like......

this..

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdPEW2W-R98[/youtube]



Highly improbable as the earliest texts do not overall mention Mary Magdalene as lead disciple.


Well if ya wanna get educated on that friend..watch the video i provided...the link was broke and i just fixed it....


If you have a transcript I can go through, great. I'm not watching a 50 minute video that I have a strong feeling is based on terrible scholarship for the same reason I don't bother watching the Zeitgeist movies.


With all Seriousness the religious scholar that did this research..Elaine Pagels is a highly decorated religious scholar known worldwide for her work on the gnostic Gospels..

Quote:
Elaine Pagels, née Hiesey, is the Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University. The recipient of a MacArthur Fellowship, she is best known for her studies and writing on the Gnostic Gospels.


She also ties in Buddhist influence in the real early Christianity in some of her other scholarly works...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Pagels

I did try to find a transcript for you..but there is none that i could locate..

She is an author of many books and the author of one specific to this topic..and I certainly do not expect you to go out to buy it..

But anyway she is the real deal when it comes to religious scholars there is no doubt about her professionalism per her academic record...

And she does present a compelling case to what the real Christianity was before it was tainted by the patriarchs that followed it who were in power in the Church..

These people altered it to serve their power and political purposes..and this has been going on for close to two thousand years...

True Christianity ..the crux of the true christianity..is not that Much different that hindu religions or buddhist religions..with the secret to Nirvana or Bliss IN THE MOMENT OF NOW..in clear sight for those who have the ability to DISCERN the essence of how to get there from the current teachings that exist...

What happened to me did happen almost overnight in the increase of almost all my human skills and abilities..

But the path there was not at all easy..with every moment of every day..not sure if it would be my last one..as the personal trial and tribulations to get there..was extremely painful and meticulously tedious...

But specifically the things that i found that worked were the type of ancient movements through a type of dance and yes even belly dance..that aligned the chakras in my body..opened them up to release all the negative energy stored in my over 5 decade life..

You can call it TAI CHI..eastern meditations..or whatever..but the path i found worked ..and it does seem that it is not too far from how Jesus actually got there either..among many..many..many human beings across the centuries..

And while i cannot prove it..my feeling is that animals exist in this plane of existence..almost all the time..

It is just that some humans are seriously 'spiritually' diseased..in a naturalistic way..as a byproduct of instant gratification..that is so prevalent in western cultures...

Humans are simply not evolved in the classic sense of evolution for instant gratification..

Instant gratification can seriously destroy the normal state of human homeostasis and the joy of just being here and existing...

Not unlike my cat stretched out in his Yoga pose..basking in the sun...

In fact.. precisely like my cat stretched out in his Yoga Pose basking n the sun...

What i am proposing and what Jesus was proposing my friend..is not rocket science at all..

It is just a return to how we were 'before the apple'..to use a religious metaphor..that again..is just metaphor and myth...

Not sure why you oppose me so strongly as there is solid science behind what i am saying...

I am a scientist friend..not a woo dude...

I study the human condition..per all types of intelligence..not just the verbal..visual spatial..and mathematical oriented ones...

The intelligence of movement, emotional and existential 'IQ' is a real deal..it's no myth...

I did not get where i am at without logic.. at all...

This is science friend..and YES THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY IS CATCHING UP ON IT....


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Last edited by aghogday on 26 Dec 2013, 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

MCalavera
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26 Dec 2013, 9:29 am

aghogday wrote:
With all Seriousness the religious scholar that did this research..Elaine Pagels is a highly decorated religious scholar known worldwide for her work on the gnostic Gospels..


What is more important to know is if the expert consensus agrees with her about Mary Magdalene.

Bart Ehrman argues the following (in a debate with another person):

Quote:
On a related point, if Mary was important in Jesus' earthly life (for example, during his public ministry prior to his death), why do the two have almost no contact with each other in the Gospels? To the surprise of many people who owe their knowledge of Jesus more to Hollywood than to the New Testament, Mary is scarcely ever mentioned in Jesus' company in the four Gospels of the New Testament--our earliest and best sources for knowing about the historical Jesus. In these sources, our only first-century records of Jesus' life, how often is Mary associated with Jesus during his public ministry? Once. And only in the company of other women.


And I say that makes much more sense than to, out of nowhere, make Mary Magdalene to be someone bigger than she originally was (according to the earliest texts).



aghogday
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26 Dec 2013, 9:47 am

MCalavera wrote:
aghogday wrote:
With all Seriousness the religious scholar that did this research..Elaine Pagels is a highly decorated religious scholar known worldwide for her work on the gnostic Gospels..


What is more important to know is if the expert consensus agrees with her about Mary Magdalene.

Bart Ehrman argues the following (in a debate with another person):

Quote:
On a related point, if Mary was important in Jesus' earthly life (for example, during his public ministry prior to his death), why do the two have almost no contact with each other in the Gospels? To the surprise of many people who owe their knowledge of Jesus more to Hollywood than to the New Testament, Mary is scarcely ever mentioned in Jesus' company in the four Gospels of the New Testament--our earliest and best sources for knowing about the historical Jesus. In these sources, our only first-century records of Jesus' life, how often is Mary associated with Jesus during his public ministry? Once. And only in the company of other women.


And I say that makes much more sense than to, out of nowhere, make Mary Magdalene to be someone bigger than she originally was (according to the earliest texts).


The gnostic gospels are real historical texts my friend..and they are not what is included in the New Testament..

This is where she is getting the documentation..

There is no doubt that what we see in the so called New Testament does not match what was actually early Christianity that was proposed by the real historical Jesus..

People have been holding down women to less that what their abilities are..for as long as patriarchs have been in control..

The times are simply changing now.. and along with that comes the egalitarian freedoms that are also not allowed in patriarchal cultures..such as homosexuality..etc....

The real Jesus was an egalitarian living in an extremely repressed patriarchal culture..

He was truly two thousand years ahead of his time..

But the fruition of what he proposed IS MOST DEFINITELY HAPPENing NOW..across the globe..and only accelerating as each day goes by..per the history of what is Patriarchy in so many countries across the world..

Middle Eastern countries..are currently left behind..but even that is changing as we speak NOW through freedom of expression..per IT devices such as twitter and blogs...

As Freedom of Expression rings!..farther and stronger..across the globe...


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MCalavera
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26 Dec 2013, 9:52 am

aghogday wrote:
The gnostic gospels are real historical texts my friend..and they are not what is included in the New Testament..

This is where she is getting the documentation..


Red herring. I'd be an idiot to dispute that.

What I'm disputing is the claim specifically made about Mary Magdalene historically being Jesus' lead disciple.



aghogday
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26 Dec 2013, 10:45 am

MCalavera wrote:
aghogday wrote:
The gnostic gospels are real historical texts my friend..and they are not what is included in the New Testament..

This is where she is getting the documentation..


Red herring. I'd be an idiot to dispute that.

What I'm disputing is the claim specifically made about Mary Magdalene historically being Jesus' lead disciple.


Well friend.. neither i or the religious scholar makes the actual claim that Mary Magdalene was the lead disciple ..the gnostic gospel religious text only points to that likelihood...

Likely is not a definitive claim.. it is a potential and probability...

And no.. there is no specific probability statistic mentioned..only the word 'likely'..per study of the gnostic gospel texts...

But it does make logical sense from an historical perspective..that if she did have this type of influence that the record would be tainted from the general directive to keep women down..'in their place'..subservient as 'cattle' for reproduction for men..overall...

The myths of modern Christianity..such as Jesus is the only Son of GOD..and the physical virgin birth are not much different that the modern hyperbole that marketing techniques use to sell most any idea..or material object..to keep people motivated to buy a product.. whether it is a car or a philosophy..in a church..on Sunday morning to keep the 'offering' growing...

But really hard to say much about that from a personal judgmental attitude..per logic.. as emotional hyperbole..is part of human nature now..in the past..and will always be that way..as long as humans exist in their general current evolutionary form....

It's just the way things are..and we would only be logical to make the best out of the real evidenced benefits for ourselves to make the most of the only thing we tRULY have..the moment of NOW...

To leave bliss and nirvana behind..when it is possible..

Is truly the insanity my friend...

Jesus was a friend..that is all...

With a path shared to get there...not unlike Buddha..Muhammad and all their 'friends'......


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MCalavera
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26 Dec 2013, 11:35 am

Except the likelihood was not good enough. The Gnostic texts, with the possible exception of the Gospel of Thomas, came after the canonical Gospels (at least the first three).

In fact, the Gospel of Mary is argued by most scholars to have been written in the second century.



aghogday
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26 Dec 2013, 11:48 am

MCalavera wrote:
Except the likelihood was not good enough. The Gnostic texts, with the possible exception of the Gospel of Thomas, came after the canonical Gospels (at least the first three).

In fact, the Gospel of Mary is argued by most scholars to have been written in the second century.


It doesn't matter which came first..what matters is what the culture of the time allowed to be put in effect..for the study of others...

Per restrictions of the strong patriarchal influence of those days...

There are no definitive answers in life..my friend anyway..

It is just a practice like medicine...

But the essence of the truth of what it means to be a human being..overall..never changes no matter who is doing the talking or designing the metaphors..either in verbal..written..or non-verbal communication....

That is.. until nature changes it..which is always the factual nature of life in general....

We can only hope to ride the wave in balance..until the time of our death..

That is all..and that is overall what the real historical Jesus..Muhammad..and Buddha...and all their
'friends' discussed..in real terms of human affect and effect of the moment of now..not some fairly tale of tomorrow or yesterday....


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bryanmaloney
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26 Dec 2013, 12:45 pm

Jesus was not liberal. Jesus did not advocate using the violence inherent in tax collection to redistribute wealth, for example. Liberalism is all about using the violence inherent in governmental action to take wealth from some and give it to others. The taxes of His day were not used for "welfare", they were used primarily for aggressive military action, and Jesus said to pay your taxes.

Jesus was also not conservative. He didn't care about keeping up an appearance of morality. He didn't care about worldly hierarchy.

This is why Jesus cannot be claimed by either "side" in this day and age. A full embrace of His teachings destroys both liberalism and conservativism.



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26 Dec 2013, 1:04 pm

aghogday wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Except the likelihood was not good enough. The Gnostic texts, with the possible exception of the Gospel of Thomas, came after the canonical Gospels (at least the first three).

In fact, the Gospel of Mary is argued by most scholars to have been written in the second century.


It doesn't matter which came first..what matters is what the culture of the time allowed to be put in effect..for the study of others...


Actually, it does matter as it gives us an idea of when it originated and, therefore, judging that it wasn't likely if the text making the claim was written way after the event, and especially if the earliest texts pertaining to the event do not support the claim made in the much later text.



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26 Dec 2013, 1:07 pm

bryanmaloney wrote:
Jesus was not liberal. Jesus did not advocate using the violence inherent in tax collection to redistribute wealth, for example. Liberalism is all about using the violence inherent in governmental action to take wealth from some and give it to others. The taxes of His day were not used for "welfare", they were used primarily for aggressive military action, and Jesus said to pay your taxes.

Jesus was also not conservative. He didn't care about keeping up an appearance of morality. He didn't care about worldly hierarchy.

This is why Jesus cannot be claimed by either "side" in this day and age. A full embrace of His teachings destroys both liberalism and conservativism.


Jesus didn't give a tinker's damn about keeping wealth and material possessions. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"? "You will find your wealth in Heaven"?

By the way, most of your taxes ARE used for aggressive military action. The DoD has used trillions of dollars on projects we're not allowed to know about. Even they don't have a firm understanding of how much they spent on various items. Welfare programs are nothing compared to the Pentagon's budget every year.

Oh, and let's not forget, without taxes Jesus wouldn't have been born in Bethlehem, which was required in the prophecy. Nevermind the fact that Caesar never, ever ordered people to return to their hometowns to collect taxes. Nevermind the fact that if he had, Mary and Joseph wouldn't have gone to Bethlehem anyway.

As for the Gnostic Gospels, the only way you could take them as being literal history is if you never read them. They blatantly contradict all sorts of things from the other books. Heck, the New Testament as we know it has contradictions all over the place.



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26 Dec 2013, 1:12 pm

Nevertheless, some of the Epistles and the synaptic Gospel books in the New Testament have been quite useful in helping scholars figure out some truths about Jesus and the earliest Christians.

They're not just bundles of contradictions "all over". They seem to support each other as well in many ways.



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26 Dec 2013, 1:15 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Nevertheless, some of the Epistles and the synaptic Gospel books in the New Testament have been quite useful in helping scholars figure out some truths about Jesus and the earliest Christians.

They're not just bundles of contradictions "all over". They seem to support each other as well in many ways.


Matthew and Luke can't even agree on Joseph's bloodline.