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LKL
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25 Dec 2013, 3:14 am

https://medium.com/get-bullish/5088b50ec7d

what actual feminists think about benevolent sexism, as opposed to the straw-feminists that are always accused of wanting things both ways.



AspieOtaku
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25 Dec 2013, 4:11 am

So...treat every man as your enemy and everybody wins?


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Shau
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25 Dec 2013, 6:47 am

I've been called a misogynist for not acting in accord to benevolent sexism before. Life is full of such wonderful little ironies. Society still seems to be sent reeling whenever I tell some woman to "harden the f**k up" instead of coddling her. :roll:



jrjones9933
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25 Dec 2013, 9:16 am

Why bother to read the article when you already know everything? :roll:

I would indeed find it exceedingly creepy if a woman suddenly got all starry-eyed and waxed poetic about my masculine genius.



ArrantPariah
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25 Dec 2013, 9:29 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
I would indeed find it exceedingly creepy if a woman suddenly got all starry-eyed and waxed poetic about my masculine genius.


I'm sure that I would enjoy it.

I wonder what its like to be Brad Pitt, who finds himself perpetually in such an exceedingly creepy situation? Must be tough.



jrjones9933
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25 Dec 2013, 9:53 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
I would indeed find it exceedingly creepy if a woman suddenly got all starry-eyed and waxed poetic about my masculine genius.


I'm sure that I would enjoy it.

I wonder what its like to be Brad Pitt, who finds himself perpetually in such an exceedingly creepy situation? Must be tough.


If, like Brad Pitt, you do some things that are arguably worthy of being called genius, and were a sex symbol, then it would indeed seem natural.



ArrantPariah
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25 Dec 2013, 10:18 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
If, like Brad Pitt, you do some things that are arguably worthy of being called genius, and were a sex symbol, then it would indeed seem natural.


"Arguably" being the key word here, anyone could do some things that are arguably worthy of being called genius. For example, my posts here on WrongPlanet.

And, I possess a male body frame, which symbolizes sex as much as any other, for those who are into objectification. Image

So, cum and get it, ladies! Image



jrjones9933
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25 Dec 2013, 10:26 am

Your point being that because that is what you want, everyone should be happy to get it?



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25 Dec 2013, 10:58 am

Frankly, I Love Lucy handed this issue better years ago.

In one episode, Lucy and Ethel want their husbands to treat them as equals. So, they don't do anything for them that they wouldn't do for another man.

Lucy and Ethel didn't like the outcome. A lot of the "little things" done out of politeness and good manners just because they are women actually made their lives more enjoyable. Ricky and Fred weren't being mean....they simply stopped doing those things society expects men to do for a lady.

I've long asserted (to feminists) that they shouldn't be so fast to demand "equality" with men.

Men have it DIFFERENT. They don't always have it BETTER. This doesn't have to be a gender issue to appreciate that reality. You might envy the status or position someone has, but you really don't know all the hidden baggage that comes with.

That's not intended to defend sexism, but before wanting "equality" with someone, perhaps you should really examine what you'd be getting to have that equality.

I know people who envy the wealth and lifestyles of accomplished CEOs. I know for a fact most of those people wouldn't want to work more than 40 hours a week or work odd hours to attain that wealth. A self-made millionaire often puts in an unimaginable amount of work and sacrifices a lot to get there. They don't just get lucky in the "paycheck lottery" and get paid big bucks for doing a normal 9-5 job.



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25 Dec 2013, 11:26 am

As a male who is a gender equality feminist... Gender roles are complete and utter garbage.

Aside from the biology of the genders... the only differences between men and women are a result of culture. Meaning, that the differences between gender in our society only exist because we believe it to be so, and behave with gender roles as an expectation.

Sexism, of any kind, is wrong... as with separate, but equal, benevolent sexism is not any better...


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Feralucce
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25 Dec 2013, 11:42 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Frankly, I Love Lucy handed this issue better years ago.

In one episode, Lucy and Ethel want their husbands to treat them as equals. So, they don't do anything for them that they wouldn't do for another man.

Lucy and Ethel didn't like the outcome. A lot of the "little things" done out of politeness and good manners just because they are women actually made their lives more enjoyable. Ricky and Fred weren't being mean....they simply stopped doing those things society expects men to do for a lady.

I've long asserted (to feminists) that they shouldn't be so fast to demand "equality" with men.

Men have it DIFFERENT. They don't always have it BETTER. This doesn't have to be a gender issue to appreciate that reality. You might envy the status or position someone has, but you really don't know all the hidden baggage that comes with.

That's not intended to defend sexism, but before wanting "equality" with someone, perhaps you should really examine what you'd be getting to have that equality.

I know people who envy the wealth and lifestyles of accomplished CEOs. I know for a fact most of those people wouldn't want to work more than 40 hours a week or work odd hours to attain that wealth. A self-made millionaire often puts in an unimaginable amount of work and sacrifices a lot to get there. They don't just get lucky in the "paycheck lottery" and get paid big bucks for doing a normal 9-5 job.


Since you brought up the business aspects... let's look at that...
Quote:
That's not intended to defend sexism, but before wanting "equality" with someone, perhaps you should really examine what you'd be getting to have that equality.

Whether or not you intend it... this statement is arrogant and condescending. You have no idea what they go through either. This is a two way street.

Quote:
I know people who envy the wealth and lifestyles of accomplished CEOs. I know for a fact most of those people wouldn't want to work more than 40 hours a week or work odd hours to attain that wealth. A self-made millionaire often puts in an unimaginable amount of work and sacrifices a lot to get there. They don't just get lucky in the "paycheck lottery" and get paid big bucks for doing a normal 9-5 job.

Most PEOPLE are not willing to work those hours... Not just women... Your wording "Most of those people"... since we are talking about women, equity feminists, is really disrespectful... most men wouldn't want to do this either...

Let's look at the facts about sexism in business -
*Women make up only 21 of the S&P 500’s CEOs -- that’s just 4 percent.

*women only make up slightly more than 10 percent of big company chief financial officers.

*Women get paid 77 cents on the dollar for every dollar a man makes, according to a recent study from the Institute for Women's Policy Research. That's a difference of more than $10,000 per year on average.

*And Among recent college graduates, women make 82 percent of what men make

*Female workers made up just 6.2 percent of the top earning positions in 2010

*almost half of all workers are prohibited or strongly discouraged from discussing pay information, according to an IWPR report. That means women workers can't find out if their male colleagues are earning more than they are.

*If women want to make more money, they generally have to try harder than their comparable male colleagues. Women workers have to pay closer attention to their strategy than men when asking for a raise, according to a recent study in the Psychology of Women Quarterly.

*because of this disparity Student loans are a higher percentage of women workers' earnings

*In addition to making less money than men in comparable jobs, women are also more likely to end up doing low-paying work. Sixty percent of minimum wage workers are women. And nearly two-thirds of part-time workers are women, according to the joint economic committee report, and part-time workers earn less per hour than their full-time counterparts.

*Women face a variety of unconscious stereotypes in the workplace that hold them back, like: They don't need more money because they're not the primary breadwinners, they can't do certain jobs that are considered "men's work," their supposed to act a certain type of feminine in the workplace, they're not committed to their jobs because their the primary caregivers to their kids.

*Women also face more safety risks at work than men. Of the 11,717 sexual harassment charges brought in 2010, 83 percent came from women

*A recent study by Catalyst lets us know that men are more likely to get “hot jobs” or jobs that come with more responsibility, staff and double the budget than women. Women are also routinely passed over for international assignments.

*Another aspect of the study stated that 53 percent of men get promoted after only completing a formal leadership program where only 37 percent of women get promoted after finishing the same program.




Before you dare to tell someone that they don't want equality because they don't know what it entails, you should consider how little you know about someone's position... using a show from the 1950s is hardly appropriate to today's changing gender politics...

As a simpler guide for this stuff... before you make any statements about gender, ask yourself.. would this be insulting or racist if I was saying about Asians, African Americans or Native Americans? If the answer is no, you should probably rethink it... If the answer is yes (and it is stuff like this) it is likely that you should rethink everything.


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The_Walrus
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25 Dec 2013, 12:54 pm

LKL wrote:
https://medium.com/get-bullish/5088b50ec7d

what actual feminists think about benevolent sexism, as opposed to the straw-feminists that are always accused of wanting things both ways.

In fairness, the thrust of the article is "women are not an autonomous mass". Doubtless there are many of those "straw" women who "want it both ways". Doubtless there are at least as many women who don't want to be patronised by men (both literally and in the conventional sense).



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25 Dec 2013, 3:32 pm

Feralucce wrote:
As a male who is a gender equality feminist... Gender roles are complete and utter garbage.


No man has yet volunteered to gestate a fetus.

Feralucce wrote:
Aside from the biology of the genders... the only differences between men and women are a result of culture. Meaning, that the differences between gender in our society only exist because we believe it to be so, and behave with gender roles as an expectation.


If you live with boys and girls from birth onwards, they are just different. They would still be different, even if socially expected to be identical. This is probably due to hormones more than anything else. Transgender folks generally have to take hormone supplements to be like their new gender.

Feralucce wrote:
Sexism, of any kind, is wrong... as with separate, but equal, benevolent sexism is not any better...


Benevolent sexism probably beats malevolent sexism.



ArrantPariah
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25 Dec 2013, 3:33 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
Your point being that because that is what you want, everyone should be happy to get it?


I'm entitled to my own, private fantasies, am I not?



jrjones9933
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25 Dec 2013, 3:46 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Your point being that because that is what you want, everyone should be happy to get it?


I'm entitled to my own, private fantasies, am I not?


I wouldn't object to anything that you choose to do with another consenting adult. When you start assuming that other people will enjoy adoration based on basic characteristics (sex, race, age), then I will defend their right to object to that treatment.