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The_Face_of_Boo
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02 Jan 2014, 4:02 am

Feralucce wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Quote:
2) current physiological evidence shows no differences between male and female brain structures.


But that's not true.


Okay... The information I have been reading states otherwise, but I am no longer interested in debating any of this.


OK, I was just curious about these evidences tho because I am not finding them.



LoveNotHate
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02 Jan 2014, 4:52 am

Point 1:
My opinion is that the concept of "gender roles" is strongly influenced by the hormones affecting the brain.

Estrogen -> Femininity -> Feminite thoughts and expression - > desire to be in a Feminite role
Testostorone -> Masculine -> Masculine thoughts and expression -> desire to be in a Masculine role

Gender roles exist partly because of hormones affecting thoughts in the brain.

Point 2:

Riddle me this: Why do guys have the "male ego" ? Is this a learned gender thingie ?

thank you.



Last edited by LoveNotHate on 02 Jan 2014, 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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02 Jan 2014, 4:56 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Point 1:
My opinion is that the concept of "gender roles" is strongly influenced by the hormones affecting the brain.

Estrogen -> Femininity -> Feminite thoughts and expression - > desire to be in a Feminite role
Testostorone -> Masculine -> Masculine thoughts and expression -> desire to be in a Masculine role

Gender roles exist partly because of hormones affecting thoughts in the brain.
Point 2:

Riddle me this: Why do guys have the "male ego" ? Is this a learned gender thingie ?

thank you.


http://www.parenting.com/article/real-d ... -and-girls



LKL
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02 Jan 2014, 5:18 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Feralucce wrote:
As a male who is a gender equality feminist... Gender roles are complete and utter garbage.

Aside from the biology of the genders... the only differences between men and women are a result of culture. Meaning, that the differences between gender in our society only exist because we believe it to be so, and behave with gender roles as an expectation.

Sexism, of any kind, is wrong... as with separate, but equal, benevolent sexism is not any better...


Women and men are different, that's not saying they don't deserve equality or justifies sexism, you as an Aspie you surely realize your brain is different yet that doesn't mean you don't deserve the same respect as NTs, right? Or do you also think that the difference between Aspies and NTs is only cultural?

Scientific researchers wouldn't agree with you that only culture makes the differences between women and men, not only they differ in sex organs and chromosomes but studies after studies of all kinds, biological, physiological, psychological, neurological, MRA Scans... show how fundamentally women and men are different, even their brain structures are different, how things process in their heads are different, how they perceive things and emotions are different, the distribution of the average IQ scores differ (like verbal vs spatial). In fact, the neurological difference between women and men's brains is probably more obvious and significant than the difference between Aspies and NTs of the same gender.

Also, culture isn't an independent entity that has emerged from nowhere, it has emerged from our nature as human beings, have you ever wondered for example, why the historic Protective role of males was and still apparent in almost all cultures? Whether in Cowboy culture, through the French Marketeer and going as far to the Samurai? Because it simply stems from a biological reality: men are physically stronger and women became much physically vulnerable during pregnancy, that biological model is due to million of years of evolution as a species.

We can be egalitarian without denying scientific and biological facts.

bolding = Freudian slip ;p

It is almost certainly true that various traits are statistically bimodal in humans, but there's a great deal of overlap in the center and there's no woman who's more of a 'real' woman than any other, and no man who's more of a 'real' man than any other (assuming normal chromosomes and genetalia).

As far as studies go, a lot of those are exaggerated in the press or are extremely poorly conducted in the first place.



LKL
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02 Jan 2014, 5:21 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Feralucce wrote:
As a male who is a gender equality feminist... Gender roles are complete and utter garbage.


No man has yet volunteered to gestate a fetus.

Feralucce wrote:
Aside from the biology of the genders... the only differences between men and women are a result of culture. Meaning, that the differences between gender in our society only exist because we believe it to be so, and behave with gender roles as an expectation.


If you live with boys and girls from birth onwards, they are just different. They would still be different, even if socially expected to be identical. This is probably due to hormones more than anything else. Transgender folks generally have to take hormone supplements to be like their new gender.


I would, but right now it's sort physically impossible.

There is much more difference between two individual boys/girls than boys vs girls as whole, countless cognetive tests have shown this. Yes, there are hormones that influence things, but 1. hormone levels very in individuals and 2. two hormones do not define a person.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Quote:
2) current physiological evidence shows no differences between male and female brain structures.


But that's not true.


But it doesn't actually mean that there is an inherent difference between mean and woman either, for two reasons. 1. Neuroplascity and 2. The fact the "differences" are not based on individual brains but summing up populations. Now, if you want to here something, studies have shown that there is less differences between the brains of male and females aspies, interpret that as you will.


While Neuroplasticity might explain some differences in adults but studies show that boys' brains develop differently in the womb due to testosterone exposure.

Why for example, toddler girls tend to speak earlier than boys? It is because of difference in neurochemicals and proteins in the brains at this stage.

Parents treat baby boys and baby girls differently from the day they're born.



The_Face_of_Boo
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02 Jan 2014, 5:38 am

LKL wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Feralucce wrote:
As a male who is a gender equality feminist... Gender roles are complete and utter garbage.


No man has yet volunteered to gestate a fetus.

Feralucce wrote:
Aside from the biology of the genders... the only differences between men and women are a result of culture. Meaning, that the differences between gender in our society only exist because we believe it to be so, and behave with gender roles as an expectation.


If you live with boys and girls from birth onwards, they are just different. They would still be different, even if socially expected to be identical. This is probably due to hormones more than anything else. Transgender folks generally have to take hormone supplements to be like their new gender.


I would, but right now it's sort physically impossible.

There is much more difference between two individual boys/girls than boys vs girls as whole, countless cognetive tests have shown this. Yes, there are hormones that influence things, but 1. hormone levels very in individuals and 2. two hormones do not define a person.

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Quote:
2) current physiological evidence shows no differences between male and female brain structures.


But that's not true.


But it doesn't actually mean that there is an inherent difference between mean and woman either, for two reasons. 1. Neuroplascity and 2. The fact the "differences" are not based on individual brains but summing up populations. Now, if you want to here something, studies have shown that there is less differences between the brains of male and females aspies, interpret that as you will.


While Neuroplasticity might explain some differences in adults but studies show that boys' brains develop differently in the womb due to testosterone exposure.

Why for example, toddler girls tend to speak earlier than boys? It is because of difference in neurochemicals and proteins in the brains at this stage.

Parents treat baby boys and baby girls differently from the day they're born.


and before they're born?



LKL
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02 Jan 2014, 8:23 pm

Possibly, with ultrasounds telling the gender in the 2nd trimester. It probably doesn't have as much of an effect as the social interactions later.

Not great sources, but they get the point across:
http://thestir.cafemom.com/baby/133874/ ... es_are_the
http://scientopia.org/blogs/scicurious/ ... rl-baby-x/
http://www.parentmap.com/article/pink-b ... ts-nurture
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 11887.html



LoveNotHate
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02 Jan 2014, 8:51 pm

LKL wrote:
Possibly, with ultrasounds telling the gender in the 2nd trimester. It probably doesn't have as much of an effect as the social interactions later.

Not great sources, but they get the point across:
http://thestir.cafemom.com/baby/133874/ ... es_are_the
http://scientopia.org/blogs/scicurious/ ... rl-baby-x/
http://www.parentmap.com/article/pink-b ... ts-nurture
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 11887.html


You would be disregarding transsexuals/intersexed people in this "evidence" ?



LKL
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02 Jan 2014, 8:55 pm

I don't think that infants can be said to be 'transsexual,' and I'm pretty sure that the parents in the studies were all cis.



ArrantPariah
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04 Jan 2014, 4:30 pm

Anyway, the next time some disaster like the Titanic happens again, it won't be "Women and Children First!", because, well, not only is that "benevolent sexism" for the ladies, but malevolent sexism for the gents.

Why should we have to go down with the ship, just because we have a dongle between our legs?

Every man or woman for himself!



LKL
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07 Jan 2014, 2:04 am

^ that's how it's been with pretty much every shipwreck before and after the Titanic. The Titanic was an anomaly, in part because of the length of time that it took to sink and in part because of the composition of the passengers in terms of class and era. Usually 'having a penis and being an adult' are pretty significant positive factors for shipwreck survival.



Feralucce
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07 Jan 2014, 2:18 am

^^^ and now we have sexism the other way...

Ironically enough, in most maritime disasters, both men and women have demonstrated incredible compassion... in the most recent maritime disasters, people of both genders have been known to take turns in the boats so everyone could rest...

To all the sexist commenters in this thread, no matter your gender or the direction of your vitriol... grow up, get over it, and stop being a sexist pig/sow


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