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Pepe
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26 Dec 2013, 4:47 am

<quote>
Conflicting Beliefs

Cognitive Dissonance happens when a person receives information which is incompatible with and conflicts with their already existing set of beliefs, values and perceptions.

A state of dissonance is caused when the person then challenges or is unable to accept the seemingly incompatible received information and they become more inclined to sway towards their own beliefs, no matter how false or incorrect, in order to fit in with their already preconceived perception of the world, rather than accept the true information at face value.
<unquote>

<quote>
Cognitive dissonance theory says that people have a tendency to try to rationalize the given information based upon their own set of values and beliefs, originating from their own experiences, providing seemingly reasonable explanations for the information rather than believing the seemingly impossible or difficult to believe, yet true, explanation actually given.
<unquote>

http://sparkster.hubpages.com/hub/Cogni ... Believe-It

Very simplistically, in a nutshell, an "open mind" would experience less cognitive dissonance and be more receptive to new ideas...

One of the characteristics of high functioning autistics is to be able to objectively consider new information, and if that data is logical/reasonable, incorporate it into their/our belief system...

Since aspies tend to have have a greater affinity with reason/logic, and a lesser need to embrace emotionalism, the adaptive process would be, and apparently is, easier for us overall than our NT counterparts...

And conversely, since NTs tend to be more intuitive/emotional in nature, their greater dependency on emotional equilibrium would tend to cause a greater resistance to accepting a new psychological perspective...


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redrobin62
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26 Dec 2013, 4:54 am

Thanks for sharing.



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26 Dec 2013, 6:20 am

I agree, Aspies are probably better at it than NTs. People's inability to deal with cognitive dissonance causes needless suffering - for them and for others. It's well worth learning to deal with it.


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Marky9
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26 Dec 2013, 8:16 am

Thanks for sharing an interesting perspective on cognitive dissonance that I have not considered. It does indeed make sense to me.

Learning of my Asperger's is helping me greatly to overcome some cognitive dissonance that has troubled me for years. That is, my socially and culturally instilled belief that I should be an outgoing and socially popular extrovert conflicts with my personal life experience that I am not that. The result of this unresolved dissonance between belief and experience has been anxiety and depression. Understanding of myself as aspergian has provided new knowledge that has lessen this, and thereby improved my life.


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Waterfalls
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26 Dec 2013, 8:35 am

Not my experience. I think about what causes trouble in school and with peers for a kid. Mostly as far as I can tell it is the cognitive dissonance that starts problems. Things not making sense. People saying things they don't mean, lying, by adults, as well as kids. People not following the rules, and saying they are. And the cognitive dissonance that results from that situation.

The child (or adult, because everything I wrote above applies, I think, to work and social situations for adults, too) can be completely overwhelmed by the situation, by the demands, by the not making sense. Very hard going to school for most people with ASDs. Very hard everything for many adults, too. Because of conflicting, non rational demands and expectations and responses.

So no, I don't think people with ASDs have an easier time with cognitive dissonance at all.

But maybe this was intended at an ideas level, I might have been sidetracked by mention of emotional responses. Because if we are just talking about ideas, then yes, someone with ASD I think can shift their point of view much more easily based on new evidence then a lot of NT people. But it can get very frustrating for the person with ASD when others can't shift rapidly to go along with the evidence and with what would seem to make more sense,



Pepe
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27 Dec 2013, 7:14 pm

Marky9 wrote:
Thanks for sharing an interesting perspective on cognitive dissonance that I have not considered. It does indeed make sense to me.

Learning of my Asperger's is helping me greatly to overcome some cognitive dissonance that has troubled me for years. That is, my socially and culturally instilled belief that I should be an outgoing and socially popular extrovert conflicts with my personal life experience that I am not that. The result of this unresolved dissonance between belief and experience has been anxiety and depression. Understanding of myself as aspergian has provided new knowledge that has lessen this, and thereby improved my life.


Precisely...

We have an unfortunate social disadvantage because we are so few living in an NT dominated universe.

Not only do we have to discover and adapt to our personal individuality, we must also contend with social parameters which are foreign and often toxic to our inherent autistic nature...


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many on the left pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


Pepe
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27 Dec 2013, 7:47 pm

Waterfalls wrote:
Not my experience. I think about what causes trouble in school and with peers for a kid. Mostly as far as I can tell it is the cognitive dissonance that starts problems. Things not making sense. People saying things they don't mean, lying, by adults, as well as kids. People not following the rules, and saying they are. And the cognitive dissonance that results from that situation.

The child (or adult, because everything I wrote above applies, I think, to work and social situations for adults, too) can be completely overwhelmed by the situation, by the demands, by the not making sense. Very hard going to school for most people with ASDs. Very hard everything for many adults, too. Because of conflicting, non rational demands and expectations and responses.

So no, I don't think people with ASDs have an easier time with cognitive dissonance at all.

But maybe this was intended at an ideas level, I might have been sidetracked by mention of emotional responses. Because if we are just talking about ideas, then yes, someone with ASD I think can shift their point of view much more easily based on new evidence then a lot of NT people. But it can get very frustrating for the person with ASD when others can't shift rapidly to go along with the evidence and with what would seem to make more sense,


Interesting response.

<analysis mode in process>... ;)

One of your parameters I picked up from your response was your inclusion of the autistic individual's ontological confusion...
One of the assumptions you seem to make is that the autistic individual is dealing with their cognitive dissonance in isolation without having had the benefit of insightful guiding "hands"...

I don't want to get into the "nitty gritty" now, so as to maintain a simpler/clearer discussion (we can expand on "nitty gritty" this later), so I will just say that once self confidence enters the "equation" through personal verification, our innate reasoning abilities become unfettered...and we can then quantum leap from insight to insight, which in my experience, is a superior process to that of most NTs...

An observed/defining characteristic of high functioning autistics, is the ability to adopted new ideas/concepts based on logic/reason.
"Give me a better argument and I will be convinced..."

As opposed to the more typical neurologically typical response of:
"Give me a better argument and I will be humiliated...
I will defend my position to the death...
I will then discredit you...
I will then counter humiliate you...
I will then set my tribe against you...
I will then set my god against you...
I will then set you alight because of your heresy to cleanse your dark soul... "
:P


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many on the left pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


Waterfalls
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28 Dec 2013, 12:20 am

Pepe wrote:
I will just say that once self confidence enters the "equation" through personal verification, our innate reasoning abilities become unfettered...and we can then quantum leap from insight to insight, which in my experience, is a superior process to that of most NTs...

An observed/defining characteristic of high functioning autistics, is the ability to adopted new ideas/concepts based on logic/reason.
"Give me a better argument and I will be convinced..."

As opposed to the more typical neurologically typical response of:
"Give me a better argument and I will be humiliated...
I will defend my position to the death...
I will then discredit you...
I will then counter humiliate you...
I will then set my tribe against you...
I will then set my god against you...
I will then set you alight because of your heresy to cleanse your dark soul... "
:P

That is a very interesting arguement. I'm not sure it's necessarily superior in a world full of people who are focused on defending their position and avoiding admitting error to think about thinking this way. But an insightful description nonetheless of the way a lot of people react.



Pepe
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28 Dec 2013, 6:10 am

Here is a nice little find expressing what I consider a fundamental difference between "us and them..." (NTs and aspiers...:P)

<quote>
A man's prestige suffers when he sees himself obliged to admit that for a long time he has supported a theory that is now recognized as mistaken. His vanity is affected when he must concede that others have found the better theory that he himself was unable to find.
<unquote>
http://mises.org/epofe/c6sec1.asp

Consider the implications in the quote:
Personal/community status is of critical consideration in the NT universe...
And truth can conveniently be a casualty in the war of status acquisition and maintenance...

Undoubtedly not for all NTs would put the same degree of importance on something like this...
However, the fact that it (the quote) is used in a mainstream context indicates this behavioural meme is well established.

Now consider this:
While there would often be some form of emotional attachment to established ideas/philosophies, I would be surprised if "saving face" would trump the profound aspie affinity with truthfulness...in most cases, at least...

I believe Lawrence Krauss made the observation that a good scientist would have no problem adopting a new theory if the old one proved incorrect/ineffective/obsolete...
As Hans Asperger's "little professors", what choice do we really have other than to protect the integrity of truth, justice...and all that stuff... ;)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many on the left pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


Pepe
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28 Dec 2013, 6:42 am

Waterfalls wrote:
That is a very interesting arguement. I'm not sure it's necessarily superior in a world full of people who are focused on defending their position and avoiding admitting error to think about thinking this way. But an insightful description nonetheless of the way a lot of people react.


Superior in the sense that it allows us to understand our environment better and deal with cognitive dissonance in a much more efficient manner...once we have become aware of the omnipresent corruption of an NT social system, of course... ;)

What is the alternative for we aspies?
Without our greater (superior) ability to sift through the crap from the truth via our affinity with reason rather than emotionalism, not only would we be bereft of the consummate skill of deception, we would then be in a continuous state of confusion...or dare I say it again, in a state of profound cognitive dissonance... ;)

But point taken, we are still at the mercy of corrupt social fabric...
We are simply in a better position to see it...

BTW, what do you know about "False Flag" black ops?


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many on the left pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


cavernio
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28 Dec 2013, 9:08 am

The most serious problem with this thread, like all other aspie v nt threads, is that you are clumping people into us versus them. Plenty of aspies are vain, plenty of aspies want to fit in, (possibly even moreso than if that individual were nt simply because they don't), plenty of aspies have very strong emotions. I've read many posts by aspies here that are incredibly stubborn and they choose their actions based purely off of their own emotions.

Furthermore, another underlying aspect of this argument, logic/rationalism vs emotion itself is a false dichotomy. If you value truth and logic more than anything else, you have negative emotions when people aren't logical and as such you are also 'prisoner' to your own emotions. One can be logical without using emotions, but one can also be logical and have them, and unless you're totally emotionless, your emotions are always there.
Anyways, why is truth better than a lie, especially if that lie makes someone or many people happy? Why do you value integrity above all else and why is it important that it be maintained?
And then of course there's the lack of information that an aspie might have in regards to all this, that they might not understand the position of someone else. How can you say integrity is better than firmly believing one's beliefs if you fail to understand the importance of the latter for someone else?

Personally, if I were in the Matrix I'd first want to know that I was in it and then I'd choose to stay there. How would I be causing needless suffering by staying there?

Someone who readily changes their mind in light of new information is simply someone who doesn't have a strong liaison to their sense of self, and not having a strong sense of self presents its own negatives.


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28 Dec 2013, 1:02 pm

I've not found at all that me or the others I know with autism have an easier time with cognitive dissonance; if any I'd guess it'd be worse.

Trying to hold two not logically consistent views in your mind hurts. Cognative dissonance isn't caused when they're consistent. If you can incorporate them then there is not cognitive dissonance by definition. Its when its not possible to do that that the dissonance arises.

That's the feeling of feeling two things which you CANNOT do that with, that you CANNOT incorporate the things no matter how good you are at it, that nobody could.

From my experience (and I just ran it by my boyfriend and he agreed with me), when that occurs, then it affects autistic people a lot more. Me and those I know can't deal at all with being overwhelmed by conflicting thoughts. Mental battles are going on, because it doesn't work to not have a logical system. They don't work together, but they're both still there. How does it work? It has to and it can't at the same time...

It leads to a lot of meltdowns. It leads to reduced functioning in daily activities. It leads to not being able to do things that I want to do. It feels like my mind is trying to burst from the inside out, pressure building up, me crying holding my head, because its so wrong.

No, cognitive dissonance is very hard.



Pepe
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28 Dec 2013, 7:54 pm

cavernio wrote:
The most serious problem with this thread, like all other aspie v nt threads, is that you are clumping people into us versus them. Plenty of aspies are vain, plenty of aspies want to fit in, (possibly even moreso than if that individual were nt simply because they don't), plenty of aspies have very strong emotions. I've read many posts by aspies here that are incredibly stubborn and they choose their actions based purely off of their own emotions.



I'm in a rush so just a quick response and I will get back to this later...

The "Us against them" is an aspie in joke...
Notice my :P in my original post?...
It was a light hearted jibe at the other mob...:P (once again, notice the ":P") ;)

Emotionicons are there for a purpose... ;)

Secondly, you will find that my posts are full of "tendency this and tendency that..."
This is specifically/consciously included to indicate my recognition of people's individuality, whether they be NTs, aspies or otherwise...

Thirdly, if I can't playfully pretend to be tribalistic here, then where can I? ;)

Pax...


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Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many on the left pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


Scotsman
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29 Dec 2013, 12:58 am

Dissonance to me implies a certain connection to me with harmonics, particularly in the area of feedback loops. You know, the infamous squeal when a microphone is brought too close to the amplifier. Most people operate in a feedback situation and never realize it. An example would be when you give a speech and everyone applauds, that is a case of positive feedback. Obviously the opposite, when the people boo or start launching overripe tomatoes in your direction, it could be considered negative feedback.

So, in that sense, cognitive dissonance can occur when the feedback loop starts developing those types of harmonics. You think a certain way, the information your senses collects either conflicts with or excessively agrees with what you expect which either re-enforces what you think or negates what you think which alters what your senses are telling you which affects what you are thinking which creates that feedback loop that can end in your brain squealing like crazy. :D


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Pepe
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29 Dec 2013, 5:36 am

cavernio wrote:
The most serious problem with this thread, like all other aspie v nt threads, is that you are clumping people into us versus them.


Firstly let me point out the *fact* that we aspies *are* fundamentally different to NTs on a neurological level... ;)

This subject is big...and complex...(no shite! ;))
Remember the term I used above in another post?
"Nitty gritty"? Well here is some of the "nitty gritty I was talking about:

The intelligent/reasonable/rational/logical thing to do here to overcome cognitive dissonance is to consider:
* Definitions...
* Context...
* Assumptions...

While the term "cognitive dissonance" can be applied in various ways, the "cognitive dissonance" I am using here has been defined in my first post.

So here is the definition:
"Cognitive Dissonance happens when a person receives information which is incompatible with and conflicts with their already existing set of beliefs, values and perceptions. "

Context:
A controlled, stress free environment which allows for considered, rational, logical evaluation...
I am not talking about a situation where we are immersed in the real time NT "social matrix"...

Assumptions:
* The person is not in a state of ontological insecurity in terms of an ambiguous sense of self.
* The person has a core confidence in their ability to reason...
* The person believes they are permitted to think freely...
* The person's focus/intention is to discover the facts/truth...rather than maintain blind philosophical obedience/allegiance...
* The person is aware of the influences of parental/social indoctrination before he/she had the ability to think for themselves in a logical/considered manner due to brain development fundamentals.

If you would like to continue, could you present your position with the above defining parameters in mind even if it means some iteration/reiteration?
I'd prefer a fresh start where both parties are in sync... ;)


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many on the left pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!


Janissy
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29 Dec 2013, 9:27 am

Quote:
[quote="Pepe]One of the characteristics of high functioning autistics is to be able to objectively consider new information, and if that data is logical/reasonable, incorporate it into their/our belief system...

.
[/quote]

Unsubstantiated assumption.


From what I have seen, both in AS and NT people, the ability to objectively consider new information and incorporate it into a pre-existing belief system is based not on neurology but on how strongly the belief system makes up the person's identity.