Determining truth & reality. Philosophy v Religion v Sci

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The nature of reality is best determined using:
Philosophy 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Religion 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Science 42%  42%  [ 14 ]
A mixture of the above 45%  45%  [ 15 ]
Asking my mate in the pub / bar 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 33

TallyMan
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26 Dec 2013, 8:37 am

What tool(s) are best employed to determine what is true and what is the nature of reality?

I've often seen threads in PPR where people discuss a topic using only philosophy or only religion or expressing personal bias and wishful thinking e.g. with the debates on "is free will an illusion?" and it almost seems like an intrusion to bring up science and to point out what has actually been discovered. Anyone else notice this?

I'm reminded of the following exchange 600 years ago:

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HORSE'S TEETH —Francis Bacon, 1592 (?).

In the year of our Lord 1432, there arose a grievous quarrel among the brethren over the number of teeth in the mouth of a horse. For thirteen days the disputation raged without ceasing. All the ancient books and chronicles were fetched out, and wonderful and ponderous erudition such as was never before heard of in this region was made manifest. At the beginning of the fourteenth day, a youthful friar of goodly bearing asked his learned superiors for permission to add a word, and straightway, to the wonderment of the disputants, whose deep wisdom he sore vexed, he beseeched them to unbend in a manner coarse and unheard-of and to look in the open mouth of a horse and find answer to their questionings. At this, their dignity being grievously hurt, they waxed exceeding wroth; and, joining in a mighty uproar, they flew upon him and smote him, hip and thigh, and cast him out forthwith. For, said they, surely Satan hath tempted this bold neophyte to declare unholy and unheard-of ways of finding truth, contrary to all the teachings of the fathers. After many days more of grievous strife, the dove of peace sat on the assembly, and they as one man declaring the problem to be an everlasting mystery because of a grievous dearth of historical and theological evidence thereof, so ordered the same writ down.


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babybird
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26 Dec 2013, 8:47 am

I've vote on a mixture of the above.

I put this because I remember philosophising over this once before.



MCalavera
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26 Dec 2013, 9:33 am

Science is the best (but not perfect) tool we have to determine truths. Philosophy is good for deep thinking and coming up with questions and such. Religion, on the other hand, is utterly pointless.



DentArthurDent
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26 Dec 2013, 6:15 pm

Tallyman I like your quote. I doubt many who spew forth nonsense about the bible and god have any idea of the Aristotelian understanding of knowledge. How he believed that knowledge could be accumulated through thought alone and that there was no need for experimentation or supporting evidence. These same people would have no understanding how his understanding of knowledge shaped religion and retarded our understanding of nature for centuries.

Philosophy can be helpful but only when the concepts proposed can be verified by observation and experiment. If they can't or have know hope of being supported evidence then they must be treated as simple musings and not given the status of knowledge.


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The_Walrus
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26 Dec 2013, 7:25 pm

Usually science. There are some cases, such as ethical dilemmas, where philosophy is more useful. Religion is only useful in a strictly religious context, and even then, it is rarely the only option.



MCalavera
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26 Dec 2013, 7:29 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Usually science. There are some cases, such as ethical dilemmas, where philosophy is more useful. Religion is only useful in a strictly religious context, and even then, it is rarely the only option.


Sam Harris believes that religion is easily replaced by all forms of secular spirituality when it comes to satisfying man's craving for the spiritual experience.

And religion cannot have a monopoly on morality as even religion had to have borrowed moral standards from pior organizations/institutions/communities/tribes/nations, etc.



ModusPonens
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26 Dec 2013, 7:33 pm

As a society, the best way is, by far, science. There cannot be any question on that. It's simply because science is based on evidence that anyone can verify. It's consensual, among the experts; and there's accessible information to anyone who really wishes to dive into a particular subject. As the portuguese saying goes, "against facts, there are no arguments".

On a personal level, we deal with questions which are not covered by science yet. That's why there's use in philosophy and in some religions.



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26 Dec 2013, 7:41 pm

[img][800:592]http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u660/2lucky4snuffy/3dfbb5ff5495626946f61f1da5780ced_zps8246c5fa.jpg[/img]


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The_Walrus
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26 Dec 2013, 7:48 pm

MCalavera wrote:

And religion cannot have a monopoly on morality as even religion had to have borrowed moral standards from pior organizations/institutions/communities/tribes/nations, etc.
You'll notice I didn't say it did. In fact, I said philosophy was the best way of solving moral issues.



DentArthurDent
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26 Dec 2013, 8:00 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Usually science. There are some cases, such as ethical dilemmas, where philosophy is more useful.


Yes philosophy is a very powerful tool to help unravel the complexity of ethics, but it cannot definitively state what is right and wrong, it can be used as a guide only. Religion believes it has the right to decide what is right and wrong but that is a nonsense, the commandments are not divine, apart from the self aggrandizing godly ones, the others make sense and need no divine intervention for a society to arrive at them.


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ruveyn
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26 Dec 2013, 9:52 pm

Do you really think a serious metaphysical and epistemological issue like this is going to be determined by a vote?



Woodfish
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27 Dec 2013, 7:51 am

ive tried a few times approaching these subjects here on WP in the past .. and regretted it .. feeling my very hard work at making myself undertstood was completely ignored .. misunderstood .. abused .. ridiculed ..

from that background i think its not difficult to understand that one would not approach these subjects again too eagerly .. or ever ..

i have an analogy in mind i thought of at a similar discussion at another web community some time ago .. just as a sketchy attempt at approaching such a discussion ..

my general feeling tho .. on WP the mood is akin to what ive seen of Youtube "discussions" .. troll-flavoured .. unless autism itself in all its facets is the topic of discussion ..

my little imperfect image:

to most people these days water is not a major concern .. you go to the the kitchen or some similar nearby convenient place to have a glass of it .. if and whenever you like ..

imagine then you are in a desert .. maybe the Sahara .. you have lost your way for some reason .. and the heat is really bad and you are out of water ..

then a guide appearing .. or a sign by the road .. or something else indicating where water might be found would surely be very welcome .. and greeted with great joy and hope ..

to our modern person above .. at ease in their modern home or at work .. this reaction surely seems a little exaggerated .. after all .. whats the big deal .. water is in the next faucet or tap ..

IOW .. until real need of water appears the yearning or search for it isn't too noticeable .. while on the other hand .. once real need IS experienced .. a guide or signpost is a very big deal indeed .. and to the relaxed modern person above .. all big emotion and commotion surely is utterly silly and even embarrassing .. s/he's never expereinced need of water ..

just as an attempt at an attempt ..

(i think one thing might be kept in mind .. such a discussion .. science - religion .. is a meta discussion .. IOW .. where do you stand to look at these two items? .. )


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27 Dec 2013, 8:37 am

DISMISSING any available tool in life..that can be used to have a better life..is not logical in my opinion...

Philosophy is simply the tool of metaphor to get to the crux of truth..

Science is the measuring tool to validate what we suggest is reality...

And religion..is simply the greatest tool of all from an historical perspective to get people together binding them with social emotional contagion to produce the total effect of love and comfort for each other...

The details really are not that important..as long as no one is harmed...

I go to the Catholic Church and i can easily overlook the literal beliefs that Jesus was the only son of GOD..arose from the DeAD..and born of the Virgin Mary..

Yah..obviously that's BS..no one if fooling me with the hyperbole that was developed to keep people fearful..control women's reproductive freedom..and give people something to hope for after death..if this life was too hard to tolerate...

But that's the historical past..

No need to fear these things anymore..and women do have reproductive rights with the separation of Church and State..and seriously if people will just stand up for their rights..like i do when i invoke my rights to accommodations under the ADA..they can pretty much 'do as thou wilt' right now.

Unless they put themselves in their own prisons..

But here's the thing..when a person feels emotional contagion..and can share love..the church can be the greatest thing..if one can avoid the black and white thinking of if oh s**t...i don't agree with this or that..

I go to Casinos with groups..get free dinners..visit friends i have known all my life that go to this church.get invited to parties..and all of that..

And guess what..my church celebrates every human being..as not to be rejected by others..whether or not they are homosexual..have a different religion or whatever..

Cause the priest that leads it went to school with me..in a time and place where these discriminations were finally fading from public purview...

Philosophy..religion..and science are all vital parts of the human experience and yes..overall human intelligence..

Church can increase emotional intelligence..and philosophy can increase existential intelligence..

And Love is just great..

That is all..

To leave any component behind..is simply foolish ..in my best estimation..for the long run that is the whole of life..

And just remember if yah.ain't got no kids..and ya grow old and all of that..and don't get married..

Having the kind of social network provided by a church..can be the difference in the long run between life or death..

Even in an example as simple as a friend from church checking on ya..in your apartment if you haven't been to church in a while..and yes caring and loving individuals in church do..do that for people..

A person ain't gonna get that..unless they are connected to some group of human beings in real life...

The internet..don't work that way...

It's really just common sense..human common sense....

And there simply are not many organizations anymore..not even dam bowling leagues..to provide a long term third place in life..to develop friendships..that really last..real caring friendships..not a selfish way of life...

Where people simply help each other in times of love and need.....


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27 Dec 2013, 9:26 am

I agree that science is a good tool, but it is not everything, and does not even come close to knowing everything.
Philosophy is what leads science in a direction of what to explore next.
Religion, I agree is useless, it is a means of political control. Of course don't get it confused with spirituality, which is a means of dealing with that which science does not yet, or may never know. Spirituality is a personal, internal, self-reflective thing. Religion is a collective, group control thing. Spirituality is the seed from which philosophy grows.

And understanding of the nature of reality needs to come from a whole brain perspective, approaching the subject from a purely logical, left brain perspective or a purely intuitive, right brain perspective will yield erroneous results.


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TallyMan
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27 Dec 2013, 9:50 am

pete1061 wrote:
Philosophy is what leads science in a direction of what to explore next.


aghogday wrote:
Science is the measuring tool to validate what we suggest is reality...


You both are expressing similar sentiments there. There have been occasions that philosophy guided science, but that is eclipsed nowadays by directions that science itself opens for us to explore. Science has uncovered mysteries that are way beyond the capability or language of philosophy to express. You only have to go beyond the realms of everyday human experience into realms of quantum physics or relativity to see that philosophy has nothing to say; we are in the realms of mathematics and physics. Science is showing us the true nature of reality, it is far more sophisticated and intricate than any philosophy envisaged.

Science has uncovered many mysteries and also opened the door to many more. It is not guided by philosophical principles; it has a momentum of its own.


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aghogday
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27 Dec 2013, 10:57 am

TallyMan wrote:
pete1061 wrote:
Philosophy is what leads science in a direction of what to explore next.


aghogday wrote:
Science is the measuring tool to validate what we suggest is reality...


You both are expressing similar sentiments there. There have been occasions that philosophy guided science, but that is eclipsed nowadays by directions that science itself opens for us to explore. Science has uncovered mysteries that are way beyond the capability or language of philosophy to express. You only have to go beyond the realms of everyday human experience into realms of quantum physics or relativity to see that philosophy has nothing to say; we are in the realms of mathematics and physics. Science is showing us the true nature of reality, it is far more sophisticated and intricate than any philosophy envisaged.

Science has uncovered many mysteries and also opened the door to many more. It is not guided by philosophical principles; it has a momentum of its own.


Well..while this is true..science is also catching up on philosophy..even the philosophy of empathy and love..

The mind is still an uncharted territory..and there are still some aspects of the mind that only philosophy can fully address for all the nuances of life that truly exist..

But here's the thing..not all individuals experience these nuances of life in a equal way..so the philosophy of nuances are seriously here to stay...

Psychiatrists are far from fully understanding the mind..and sometimes it is only the personal philosophy of one person..who can even cure what ails the mind...

And seriously what the f**k is more important in life than human happiness..

And please don't tell me that ain't important..and seriously while you may not do this..if you did..would it seriously be true?

But there again..the philosophy thing..

Science is still light years of addressing the simple question of why to go on..as that relates to each and every unique individual..

At least in some cases.. only personal philosophy can answer that...

There are more mysteries in this life..than in any textbook for science..

And more words to fill those textbooks..that not even philosophy has created yet...

But..this unique to each and every individual..

For some people there are no questions..

For other people..there are no answers..

But for yet other people...there is only seeking..

Only seeking the truth of ALL of WHATIS..that no

Science will never likely ..fully illustrate..in words..figures..or equations....

Some people already have those answers..friend..

But they are only for them.....

At times2

And by the way..what we suggest is reality..is simply an hypothesis..whether informal or formal...


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