how can I be kind yet clear w ASD friend?

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Hi, I'm here hoping for help in communicating with a recently-diagnosed Aspie friend who's in his early 50s.

I first posted the situation in the general discussion board, but now that I've looked around the forum a bit further, think it's more relevant here; the guy seems to manage most aspects of his life pretty well, has had girlfriends and consistent jobs that match his skills and enjoyment.

When we first met, Marvin Non.Stop.Talked. Often prefacing irrelevant trivia with "and another interesting tidbit ..." When I made it clear that this was exhausting, he dialed the talking back, way back.

His e-mails remained pages long, though, absolute walls of text. And before I could reply to one, another or several more would appear, and I couldn't keep track.

So I asked him to post his messages in a private blog; this, at least, mostly keeps me from losing them. But his writing is just like his talking: stream of consciousness, full of filler words that contribute *nothing* to meaning, and lots of repetition. Perseveration, perhaps?

I've asked him to self-edit, which leads to additional paragraphs going on about how hard it is to write in the first place and how much time he's put into editing. I've gotten snappy, posting very curt comments suggesting he try limiting his replies to the same amount of text I wrote to him.

Marvin often bemoans the dearth of "real conversation" in his life; he keeps track of how many months, years it's been since he had a real conversation, which to him means uninterrupted flow of talking for 8 or more hours.

Now I'm the one "overtalking," right? I'm at my wit's end with this guy. Sometimes he seems about to give up on social interaction at all, and it can't help that I'm harping on him to Write.Less.Already.D@mmit!

Marvin has lots of traits I value in a friend, traits which are pretty rare. So I'm not about to write him off. But the floodgate thing is something it's hard to get past right now.

Any tips on better understanding him?
Ideas for explaining how off-putting over-talking/writing is, not just to me but in general?

Also, I generally avoid giving unsolicited advice, but Marvin complains that people distance themselves from him without offering any reason why. How would you want to hear feedback, or would you at all?

I'm guilty of this. I've been told I write too much, too often. And it's hard for me to stop. It means I really like the person and I want to share my thoughts with them. Still, I'd like to be told that what I'm doing is making someone unhappy or uncomfortable. Maybe you could ask him to title his 'walls of text' with a sort of summary of what he's trying to say? And you could respond to that, without having to read everything he sends? Or perhaps you could only respond to him when his emails are brief, and simply ignore his lengthy missives?

just tell him you are getting a sensory overload. tell him he needs to be smart about what he says. smart people keep things simple. simple means he needs to scrunch everything into a half a page, or less. if he can do it in one sentence, it is genius. rhetorical things are not that big of a deal. say alot of "that's a rhetorical question". or "what does that have to do with the price of lemons on sale at the meat market". or "wow!! ! that's an amazing story". perhaps, "I'm not into that", or "go fish". "echo,echo,echo". that's the stuff my friends say to me.

First, I think it's great that you're actually telling Marvin what you see as flaws in his behavior--so many NTs don't say anything to me at all out of a desire to be polite, so I have no idea what they're thinking, if anything.

I think Marvin's problem, primarily, is theory of mind--I don't think he really understands how his actions affect other people, and then he wonders why people back away. If you tell him directly, but as politely as you can (so that he doesn't feel discouraged) what's on your mind, maybe that'll work? If he seems receptive, also give him some constructive criticism, eg, "I really enjoy reading what you've written, but sometimes it's difficult to follow. Perhaps you could provide a short summary of what's to follow at the beginning of your blog posts?"

I agree. I would love to get constructive criticism about what I did rather than that find myself in that situation where the vibe becomes noticeably guarded or off put, and I'm left trying to piece together what happened.

Trust of ones inner most thoughts is high praise. Just something to think about before you broach the subject again with him especially since he has already compromised with you on how he shares.

Tell him what specific actions he is doing wrong and tell him WHY it is wrong. Logic is very important. Talk about how it makes the other person feel when he sends all those messages. He cannot see it from your perspective--only his perspective. Sharing his facts with you is how he bonds with you. it's how he shows you that you are an important person in his life. It is like his gift to you. He expects you to be grateful that he is sharing this knowledge and insight with you because he sees it as valuable. He doesn't understand that others might not find the things he is interested in to be interesting or entertaining.

Give him an alternative behavior that is socially accepted. In other words, what is the expected amount? If he ignores the advice, I don't know what to tell you.

I do know it is frustrating that people never tell you when you do something wrong. They just expect you to read between the lines. Basically they punish for not following some unwritten rule. Being autistic, we can't read between the lines. At the same time, many of us want to be socially appropriate but we don't know how. When told what is appropriate (given clear social guidelines) we are able to follow those guidelines. I already know I am socially awkward. I am always paranoid that I am doing something wrong and someone won't tell me. It makes like easier for me when people tell me that I am doing something wrong. It doesn't hurt my feelings or offend me.

i've been told I write too long as well! I think you could tell Marvin to summarise his thoughts in conversation and emails (apologise for being unable to digest his information, he might be hurt otherwise) and suggest he could express his full thoughts in a blog, as someone has already suggested. Personally, since I started blogging, my need to talk for long hours has greatly diminished.

I'll try to phrase this request more clearly.

This approach produced long mails asking why I hadn't replied, and re-explaining things, and sharing notes on other instances when I hadn't reacted as expected or downloaded an audio file he'd made available, etc.

Can you tell him this, yourself?

Doesn't that hurt?

Thanks, Lucy. I feel like a pretty big beeyotch. My own communication is so far from perfect, who am I to complain about someone else's?

Yeah. And I'm challenged in my ability to see things from *his* perspective, to really understand how he sees and experiences interactions.

I would (and do), too.

When Marvin has complained, say, about a woman's reaction going from smiling and welcoming to disgusted and horrified, I've offered my own perspective, but he usually shoots it down as illogical. Saying "doing X, Y and Z comes across to women as creepy, because it makes us feel unsafe" is just about feelings, so it doesn't make sense to him. I need to improve the logic of my own arguments.


Yes ... and no. It's not praise when it's just dumped on the first/only available target. Not when everything and all levels of baggage are poured out within first meetings, without gauging other person's comfort level and leaving her/him space to process what you're saying and time to share of themselves. Not when you presume every minute detail of your existence to be interesting and give zero thought to the value of the other person's time and the energy it takes her/him to process your scattered rambling. Not when things are repeated over and over in circles without any new insight or effort to look at the part one's own actions played in dynamics that went wrong.

Sorry, but being treated as an interchangeable captive audience doesn't feel like an honor at all. It feels like I'm being demanded to serve up a fast-food instant intimacy to a drive-by. Lasting authentic interactions, in my book, are built over time. (Yes, I've had in-depth conversations with strangers on long flights. I'm not perfectly consistent, nor do I desire to be.)


I'll try that; thanks. Interesting challenge to my own communication skills, I like it.

I've said "no more than a screen" but he's gone on writing tomes and just prefaced them with a note that it's ok for me to take my time. WTF. Another friend explained that Marvin remembers the early internet days, when if you received an e-mail, you read every word. I've requested tldr's, but his attempts at these look like complaints that he already took a lot of time editing the main body.

Except that Marvin doesn't; he insists that the *right* friend would understand him as-is. Guidelines are too hard, take too much time/effort, or are simply unnecessary.

From the beginning, I attributed my inability to keep up with Marvin's nonstop talking (and then e-mail missives, and then blog entries) to my own bandwidth limitations from a head injury. Now anything I say, he can dismiss bc I mean well but have that pesky head injury; anyone without my limitations should be able to process his text-tornadoes just fine. :faceplant:

Thanks, all, for helping me to understand Marvin's side better, and for the pointers on how I can improve communication from my side.


I've asked Marvin to create a private wiki, which would make it easier to get to know him better and would save him repeating details and long backgrounds for every person and event he mentions. His feelings about given topics could be footnoted and linked to blog entries. Not sure how he'll react to that; it sounds pretty harsh and dry to me. But the repetition of things I've read dozens of times before, *and* heard in person, is mind-numbing to me and doesn't seem to be helping him feel heard.

Through your responses you shed such insight that I want to say thank you.

Kicker, your post reminded me of what it probably feels like from his side. Thank you for that.

No one is without feelings.

I do not believe this is a theory of mind problem, I think it is an ethical problem.
There is a simple ethical rule "Treat others as you would be treated" that Marvin does not appear to have the maturity to take on board.

A huge number of people, AS and NT alike, choose to ignore this rule or fail to be aware of it. For example, if in a restaurant a waiter accidentally drops a plate of food on the floor, many people would mutter and roll their eyes. They are blind to the fact that if they were the waiter in that position, they would not want the customer to mutter and roll their eyes at them, because their feelings would be hurt.

Its a double standard. "I can treat you badly even though I don't want you to treat me badly". I see it everywhere. It is one of the most widespread patterns of human behaviour. It is nothing to do with AS.

I doubt Marvin would enjoy it if you wrote him mammoth walls of text. And I am sure he knows that.
The problem is that he is ignoring/unaware of the "Treat others as you would be treated" rule. Its a problem in the NT population just as much as the AS.

I think just tell him, and don't worry about hurting his feelings.

Wouldn't you appreciate someone taking your feelings into account? It's easy to become jaded when no one has shown you compassion. I know, but I choose to hold on the compassion trait often demonstrated with people on the spectrum.

Edited to add: besides if the OP looks hard enough they could probably identify his style of writing and figure out that they only need to actually every other paragraph or every third. Everyone has a pattern to their writing style and how they organize thoughts. Making that "wall of text" much easier to read.

Sorry for the above missed words and misspellings on my phone.

I've tried hard, thought several times I'd mapped it ... and still missed what Marvin had felt were key points. Maybe I'm lacking some cognitive skill?

Plus, I'm pretty sure the burden of communication work lies more heavily with the party who more desires to understand or be understood. In this case, meaning it's not on me to work that hard at deciphering. But that might be something I picked up in a sales-for-engineers seminar.