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briankelley
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30 Jan 2014, 12:25 am

There seems to be this mythology that there are two different beings like elves and humans, or vulcans and humans or witches and muggles. But I don't see it being the case in reality. In reality here is no separate race of beings called NT's. The idea that society as a whole is supposedly mainly comprised of these NT beings who are supposedly... Never picked on, singled out or bullied. None of them are shy or have social difficulties. None of them have anything like OCD, or ADHD, or paranoia, or anxiety, or depression, or lack self esteem or lack self confidence. They never have trouble getting a job. They never have trouble fitting in. They never have trouble making and keeping friends. They don't in in pain and despair turn to alcohol and drugs. They don't commit suicide.
And myth number one: all of them are accepted by all other NT beings...
Does anyone really believe these NT beings actually exist?



Last edited by briankelley on 30 Jan 2014, 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

Verdandi
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30 Jan 2014, 12:37 am

NT is a term that was originally meant to mean "not autistic." It's not supposed to mean any of those other things you heaped on it in your post. It still doesn't mean all those things, although it no longer strictly means "not autistic."

NTs do exist, though. The fact that society is basically built around neurotypicality is undeniable. It's not a matter of a ~conspiracy~ or that NTs are supposedly a ~different race~.



briankelley
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30 Jan 2014, 12:53 am

Verdandi wrote:
NT is a term that was originally meant to mean "not autistic." It's not supposed to mean any of those other things you heaped on it in your post. It still doesn't mean all those things, although it no longer strictly means "not autistic."

NTs do exist, though. The fact that society is basically built around neurotypicality is undeniable. It's not a matter of a ~conspiracy~ or that NTs are supposedly a ~different race~.


Oh I know what NT is supposed to mean and where it originated all that. I wrote this based on a lot of threads I've read where NT's are talked about and an overall attitude that seems to exist regarding them as I interpret it. There is a certain amount of intended hyperbole in what I wrote.



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30 Jan 2014, 12:55 am

Ah, I didn't catch that. Carry on, then. Sorry about derailing. :)



briankelley
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30 Jan 2014, 1:00 am

Verdandi wrote:
Ah, I didn't catch that. Carry on, then. Sorry about derailing. :)


Eh I didn't exactly explain my intent. I think you put things more on track.
(Just as a disclaimer; I've experienced just about every hardship a person with autism trying to operate in the world has had to face, and I myself do tend to look upon most others as separate beings from myself. But I also think that's unrealistic.)



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30 Jan 2014, 1:03 am

When we discuss NTs here, it is usually in comparison to ourselves, meaning that we are comparing their inherently non-autistic traits with our inherently autistic ones, with the lack of such traits making their lives easier than ours being the primary point. Of course NTs have their share of struggles, they just don't have the same struggles as us strictly where autism is concerned, which can give the impression that we're forever saying, "NTs have it so easy, my life is so hard, I wish I could be more like them." Right or wrong, we are different from them, perhaps not as a species, but certainly as a culture. Perhaps comparing us to NTs is really not so different from comparing vulcans to humans, witches to muggles, humans to elves; we are very different, and have a hard time understanding each other. That is not to say that one group is superior to another, merely recognising the fact that those differences are present, and important.


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30 Jan 2014, 1:20 am

briankelley wrote:
There seems to be this mythology that there are two different beings like elves and humans, or vulcans and humans or witches and muggles. But I don't see it being the case in reality. In reality here is no separate race of beings called NT's.


There are people that we call NTs, they are very different from us.


briankelley wrote:
The idea that society as a whole is supposedly mainly comprised of these NT beings who are supposedly... Never picked on, singled out or bullied. None of them are shy or have social difficulties. None of them have anything like OCD, or ADHD, or paranoia, or anxiety, or depression, or lack self esteem or lack self confidence. They never have trouble getting a job. They never have trouble fitting in. They never have trouble making and keeping friends. They don't in in pain and despair turn to alcohol and drugs. They don't commit suicide.
And myth number one: all of them are accepted by all other NT beings...
Does anyone really believe these NT beings actually exist?

No one says they they do not experience these things, obviously they do. The difference is how their brains work compared to someone on the spectrum. How we process sensory input and how we react is very different to the NT world.

There is no rule that someone with Asperger's Disorder or HFA displays all or any of the coexisting conditions that you list here. In fact many of us display none of these things and survive in this world quite well. If you think that an Aspie is defined by these co-morbids then frankly I would say you have no real understanding of what we are.

NTs are not immune to mental illnesses, disorders or a bad life, in fact in my experience a large number of them are coping with this world worse than I am. I have come to terms with my lack of non-verbal skills and inability to respond appropriately socially or emotionally. I use my special interests to my advantage in business. I control my stimming in public, but if an NT lived in my home I would drive them away. I live by my routines but have managed to bring myself to explore outside my safety zone. I have adapted my life around my sensory issues.

NTs on the other hand may actually be under more pressure than I could ever understand to fit in and be in step with society. While I honestly don't care about my image, social standing, or number of friends. I have no time for games or politics at work, lying and cheating for promotion, and competing with my neighbour's social position nor do I understand why this is important for so many people. NTs put themselves into stressful situations continually that can only drive them crazy, and it appears to me to be self inflicted.

Brain bending drugs seem to be all the rage among the NT world to allow them to cope with their stress filled lives whereas I take no medications outside of Advil and cough syrup. My NT coworkers live in a state of trying to "get ahead" in some kind of false competition, I am happy where I am. My friends spend their lives trying to please others like thier spouse and families, I feel fulfilled being able to run my special interests undisturbed.

Yes, I live alone, I have a small social circle, society has deemed it necessary that I have conservators monitor my financial and living conditions but I am quite happy with my life. Observing the world it seems that being content is an anomaly rather than the norm. Nothing in my diagnosis stated that my life had to suck, it just states that my way of perceiving and reacting to the world causes "clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." As defined by the NT or "normal" world which from my standpoint is a pretty screwed up place that has lots of problems and stresses that could easily be avoided.


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30 Jan 2014, 1:34 am

I've read that autistics are 'wired differently'. Although that is true, it seems to cause individuals that use the term 'Neurotypical' to forget that NTs are not clones, but unique individuals that can have valid significant problems of their own. Despite what a lot of people want to believe, everyone is wired differently. Everyone on this forum has likely read/heard the cliche 'If you've met one person on the autism spectrum, you've met one person on the autism spectrum'. Well, if you meet an 'NT', the same logic applies, in fact maybe even more so as the label is far too broad. You can't use labels to describe something as complicated (understatement) as individual neurology.

Yes, autism presents its own challenges that can be crippling when living in a society built around a 'typical' person and much more. This does not mean that a person identified to be a 'Neurotypical' cannot struggle to cope in related situations. This does not mean that any problem an NT has, an autistic has it worse (at least in higher functioning). It could even be the opposite, for example many people on the autism spectrum can't feel/distinguish emotions/empathy, while a 'Neurotypical' may feel those emotions intensely and breakdown. Everyone thinks differently, spectrum or not.

I've read many times that HFA and Asperger's can be 'invisible' disorders, and in that regard I think 'Neurotypical' has evolved into a flawed concept in that while it can be used to describe what appears to be typical, it allows (if interpreted incorrectly) everything else to be overlooked. Imagine how terrible someone would feel if they had problems, but no apparent (medical label etc) reason for those problems other than that it was purely 'their fault'. Even Tony Attwood has said a reason for wanting Asperger's diagnosis is so you 'no longer feel defective as a human', and others have claimed 'no longer a failure of an NT, but a successful Aspie'. Think of the implications such notations could have on a suffering 'neurotypical' person, hence the common cliche, 'Labels are dangerous'. The above also explains why disorders like ADHD and Asperger's have been noted as 'fad diagnoses' by many, even individuals on this forum.

EDIT - Yes, the 'NT Myth'.

------------------------------------

IMPORTANT - Please don't take what I said the wrong way. My intentions were not to invalidate autistic problems (I'm very aware they can be crippling), but to validate neurotypical problems. I know autistics are 'wired more differently' compared to a typical individual.

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30 Jan 2014, 2:22 am

briankelley wrote:
The idea that society as a whole is supposedly mainly comprised of these NT beings who are supposedly... Never picked on, singled out or bullied. None of them are shy or have social difficulties. None of them have anything like OCD, or ADHD, or paranoia, or anxiety, or depression, or lack self esteem or lack self confidence. They never have trouble getting a job. They never have trouble fitting in. They never have trouble making and keeping friends. They don't in in pain and despair turn to alcohol and drugs. They don't commit suicide.
And myth number one: all of them are accepted by all other NT beings...
Does anyone really believe these NT beings actually exist?


When I talk about NTs I certainly don't mean to imply any of those things. I also don't think of neurotypicals as being exclusively, "not autistic." Maybe there are some variations of brain wiring that are not neurotypical, but not necessarily autistic either.

I believe neurotypicals are wired to be social in more of a "group think" or "hive mentality" sort of way, rather than an individualistic sort of way. I know that some people here dispute this, and they may have much more experience and knowledge than I do in saying so, but this is the best guess I can make based on my own experiences.

To me it goes without saying that NTs have all the problems stated above, and more. I don't think their difference in neurological wiring automatically makes them more social, or more socially intelligent or adept, it just makes them social in a different way. They have a mentality that seeks to arrange people into a hierarchical structure, or a pecking order. They are oriented to maintain social order. That doesn't mean the social order they generate is remotely healthy, or desirable. It just means that they need to have some kind of social order, like bees in a hive. They just do it instinctively.



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30 Jan 2014, 3:05 am

dianthus wrote:
To me it goes without saying that NTs have all the problems stated above, and more. I don't think their difference in neurological wiring automatically makes them more social, or more socially intelligent or adept, it just makes them social in a different way. They have a mentality that seeks to arrange people into a hierarchical structure, or a pecking order. They are oriented to maintain social order. That doesn't mean the social order they generate is remotely healthy, or desirable. It just means that they need to have some kind of social order, like bees in a hive. They just do it instinctively.


But, dianthus, I'm not certain that all those that we would call 'neurotypical' are necessarily hierarchy-oriented. In my personal experience, when I was working at a store for a couple of weeks last summer, I had a boss and a co-worker. Both were 'socially normal', one could say. No sign of ASD or BAP. Yet, while the boss was very much inclined toward authoritative behavior, barking his commands, accepting no backtalk, treating us like cr*p in general, my co-worker was incredibly kind and very willing to assist me and help me out in every way. She could have chosen to stand on her greater experience and demand of me that I follow her every move based on her higher level of expertise, but... she chose to treat me as an equal and just be very welcoming and patient with me. And from the talks we had, it became clear that she cared nothing for pecking order or hierarchy, or even herd mentality. But she was very, very social. She had no trouble talking to the customers who came in, whether it was to help them find something they were looking for, or to have a casual chat. In contrast to the boss, who was not open at all. I don't think this has anything to do with the position he was in, as I've had other bosses/managers who were a lot more forthcoming in their approach toward the employees. And co-workers who were more like my boss.


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30 Jan 2014, 7:03 am

Yes it's a myth. But sometimes, I get tired of hearing that I'm weird and difficult and not really ever fitting in. And at those times, there's comfort in being able to label the other person instead of me.

But labels don't really solve the problem. They just emphasize differences that I'm not sure are valid in the first place.



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30 Jan 2014, 7:13 am

there is a girl at the local supermarket who i kind of like, and she is NT (ie not autistic).
i think she likes me as well. she is often on a ladder stacking the supermarket shelves when i go to the supermarket, and when i walk past her, i feel a strange sensation like my "soul" is being tickled or something, and i look back at her and she looks at me, but i always recompose myself and buy what i want and exit the shop.

it is more her problem than mine with respect to us not meeting. she probably knows about asperger syndrome, and has probably decided that i have it, and i...i don't know. i do not want to think in a "magical" fashion, but she was telling me where the creme caramels were (a few days ago), and i told her how i graded my experience of creme caramel's, but i looked elsewhere than her eyes for almost all the time i discussed my notions of "creme caramel custards", but for a few short instants, i did look directly at her eyes, and they almost set fire to the debris that litters my soul.

they are very beautiful eyes, but......i mean i would get bored looking at them for too long i guess.

there is a difference between looking "at" a persons eyes, and looking "into" them.

i can mostly never see deeper than a persons retina if i look at their eyes, but this girl has an electrocuting current that shorts me out.

nt's are beautiful mostly i think. they accept me and make allowances for me, and i try to understand what they are feeling too (some of the time).

but i also have problems with them overpopulating and polluting the world with their waste.
they claim land as their own to feed the mouths of their babies that will grow to have an ever increasing appetite. greed is ugly. conceit that attempts to justify greed is the ugliest aspect of any notion of sentience.



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30 Jan 2014, 7:22 am

From the looks of the latest autisim theories, people on the spectrum are ones that did not have standard or complete brain development. So we are not in any shape or form a seperate species or race, but variations, often very slight, of the basic model.

But variation, and numerous other common defects is already extensive within the NT group, so that a person on the spectrum can be indistiguishable from them.

Its like a car production line. Most all have bugs or defects, right off the line, but with greater or lesser work most all are got running and last about the same ammount of time.



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30 Jan 2014, 7:42 am

Toy_Soldier wrote:
From the looks of the latest autisim theories, people on the spectrum are ones that did not have standard or complete brain development. So we are not in any shape or form a seperate species or race, but variations, often very slight, of the basic model.

But variation, and numerous other common defects is already extensive within the NT group, so that a person on the spectrum can be indistiguishable from them.

Its like a car production line. Most all have bugs or defects, right off the line, but with greater or lesser work most all are got running and last about the same ammount of time.

do not include me in your sentiment of "we". i am me, and you shall be just a figment of a reality.....that only you can be.



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30 Jan 2014, 7:53 am

It's so hard to explain the difference between an Aspie and an NT, since we could go on and on saying we have AS symptom X but then so do NTs to an extent, blah blah blah blah.. So I usually put it into an analogy: ''Everybody forgets things and become confused at times but that does not mean we all require a diagnosis for Dementia, but Dementia still exists and people are being diagnosed with it every day''. In other words, it all depends on the severity, frequency, how it affects the person's behaviour, how it interferes with the person's life, and many more.

I hope that has simplified things a bit more. So in other words, we are not ''opposite'' to NTs.


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30 Jan 2014, 8:23 am

Quote:
NT is a term that was originally meant to mean "not autistic." It's not supposed to mean any of those other things you heaped on it in your post. It still doesn't mean all those things, although it no longer strictly means "not autistic."


No, it doesn't mean 'not autistic'. It means 'neurologically typical'. There's a difference.