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AngelRho
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12 Feb 2014, 6:52 am
GoonSquad
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12 Feb 2014, 9:10 am
There's definitely more than a grain of truth to the saying. I think this is because in general terms all humans have the same 'firm ware' and thus tend to act and react in similar ways...
If you want to see this in action all you need to do is read a few ancient Roman manuscripts. Cicero's political speeches and defense monologues sound surprisingly modern as do Seneca's social commentaries...
Anybody who doubts how destructive economic inequality can be to a Republic needs to take a look at Roman history from, say, the end of the Second Punic War to the rise of Caesar...
We are beginning to make similar mistakes for, I think, similar reasons.
Also, check out the introduction to Livy's history of Rome and see if you think his criticisms are applicable to the US. It sure seems so to me. Of course, Livy was writing about the past to inform his readers about the present.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah../Livy/Livy01.html
Quote:
There is this exceptionally beneficial and fruitful advantage to be derived from the study of the past, that you see, set in the clear light of historical truth, examples of every possible type. From these you may select for yourself and your country what to imitate, and also what, as being mischievous in its inception and disastrous in its issues, you are to avoid. Unless, however, I am misled by affection for my undertaking, there has never existed any commonwealth greater in power, with a purer morality, or more fertile in good examples; or any state in which avarice and luxury have been so late in making their inroads, or poverty and frugality so highly and continuously honoured, showing so clearly that the less wealth men possessed the less they coveted. In these latter years wealth has brought avarice in its train, and the unlimited command of pleasure has created in men a passion for ruining themselves and everything else through self-indulgence and licentiousness. But criticisms which will be unwelcome, even when perhaps necessary, must not appear in the commencement at all events of this extensive work. We should much prefer to start with favourable omens, and if we could have adopted the poets' custom, it would have been much pleasanter to commence with prayers and supplications to gods and goddesses that they would grant a favourable and successful issue to the great task before us.
As you can see, Livy's entire purpose is to use past events to instruct his readers about how they should and shouldn't behave in the present--this has been a common approach to history throughout most of history....
So, even if the actual past events don't provide lessons for the present time, the written history will by the time historians get done with it!
12 Feb 2014, 12:51 pm
GoonSquad wrote:
There's definitely more than a grain of truth to the saying. I think this is because in general terms all humans have the same 'firm ware' and thus tend to act and react in similar ways...
If you want to see this in action all you need to do is read a few ancient Roman manuscripts. Cicero's political speeches and defense monologues sound surprisingly modern as do Seneca's social commentaries...
Anybody who doubts how destructive economic inequality can be to a Republic needs to take a look at Roman history from, say, the end of the Second Punic War to the rise of Caesar...
We are beginning to make similar mistakes for, I think, similar reasons.
Also, check out the introduction to Livy's history of Rome and see if you think his criticisms are applicable to the US. It sure seems so to me. Of course, Livy was writing about the past to inform his readers about the present.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah../Livy/Livy01.html
As you can see, Livy's entire purpose is to use past events to instruct his readers about how they should and shouldn't behave in the present--this has been a common approach to history throughout most of history....
So, even if the actual past events don't provide lessons for the present time, the written history will by the time historians get done with it!
If you want to see this in action all you need to do is read a few ancient Roman manuscripts. Cicero's political speeches and defense monologues sound surprisingly modern as do Seneca's social commentaries...
Anybody who doubts how destructive economic inequality can be to a Republic needs to take a look at Roman history from, say, the end of the Second Punic War to the rise of Caesar...
We are beginning to make similar mistakes for, I think, similar reasons.
Also, check out the introduction to Livy's history of Rome and see if you think his criticisms are applicable to the US. It sure seems so to me. Of course, Livy was writing about the past to inform his readers about the present.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah../Livy/Livy01.html
Quote:
There is this exceptionally beneficial and fruitful advantage to be derived from the study of the past, that you see, set in the clear light of historical truth, examples of every possible type. From these you may select for yourself and your country what to imitate, and also what, as being mischievous in its inception and disastrous in its issues, you are to avoid. Unless, however, I am misled by affection for my undertaking, there has never existed any commonwealth greater in power, with a purer morality, or more fertile in good examples; or any state in which avarice and luxury have been so late in making their inroads, or poverty and frugality so highly and continuously honoured, showing so clearly that the less wealth men possessed the less they coveted. In these latter years wealth has brought avarice in its train, and the unlimited command of pleasure has created in men a passion for ruining themselves and everything else through self-indulgence and licentiousness. But criticisms which will be unwelcome, even when perhaps necessary, must not appear in the commencement at all events of this extensive work. We should much prefer to start with favourable omens, and if we could have adopted the poets' custom, it would have been much pleasanter to commence with prayers and supplications to gods and goddesses that they would grant a favourable and successful issue to the great task before us.
As you can see, Livy's entire purpose is to use past events to instruct his readers about how they should and shouldn't behave in the present--this has been a common approach to history throughout most of history....
So, even if the actual past events don't provide lessons for the present time, the written history will by the time historians get done with it!
You would think it's because of World War ii which was so awful and bloody, western countries would swear off wars forever but this hasn't been the case. Actually, it's because of the Vietnam War and heavy antiwar activism against it warfare significantly changed. It wasn't even because of World War ii. In fact, Vietnam was on it's way to becoming just as bloody despite everyone knowing their history.
12 Feb 2014, 1:59 pm
I would just like to thank ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo for all the thought provoking and interesting threads!
THANK YOU 
The saying contains a deep wisdom, but as we all know the wisest course of action is seldom taken.
GoonSquad
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12 Feb 2014, 2:13 pm
12 Feb 2014, 2:42 pm
salamandaqwerty wrote:
I would just like to thank ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo for all the thought provoking and interesting threads!
THANK YOU
The saying contains a deep wisdom, but as we all know the wisest course of action is seldom taken.
THANK YOU
The saying contains a deep wisdom, but as we all know the wisest course of action is seldom taken.
This is so sweet!! You're welcome!
And thank you for the compliment!! !
12 Feb 2014, 2:50 pm
GoonSquad
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12 Feb 2014, 6:22 pm
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
]A much better war to compare Vietnam with is the Spanish-American war. That was a war of choice, and the ultimate expression of America's imperial policy of the time. That war and the ensuing occupation of the Philippines did cause quite a bit of protest at the time.
Vietnam had more protests for two reasons: It had far better press coverage--for the first time, the horrors of war could be seen from the comfort of your own living room--and a more liberal interpretation American Civil rights--we used to jail war protestors, ask Eugene Debs...
The quote does not mention how wars are covered, just if you do not learn the lessons or know about history, you are condemned to repeat it and people will repeat and repeat this phrase mindlessly when discussing wars in particular. It's highly suspicious BS, as if they are simply filling a page without putting serious thought into it. The example you just provided is proof!
So, you seem to have two problems....
#1 is reading comprehension. I'm simply comparing and contrasting two similar kinds of wars and explaining the similar reaction people had. That's exactly the point of your topic/quote. You need to go back and read what I wrote again. This time do it slowly and move your lips if you need to...
#2 you seem to think that there's ONLY ONE LESSON TO LEARN FROM HISTORY/WAR. That's simply not true and suggests that you suffer from poor theory of mind in addition to poor reading skills.
I pity you.
13 Feb 2014, 8:13 pm
GoonSquad wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
]A much better war to compare Vietnam with is the Spanish-American war. That was a war of choice, and the ultimate expression of America's imperial policy of the time. That war and the ensuing occupation of the Philippines did cause quite a bit of protest at the time.
Vietnam had more protests for two reasons: It had far better press coverage--for the first time, the horrors of war could be seen from the comfort of your own living room--and a more liberal interpretation American Civil rights--we used to jail war protestors, ask Eugene Debs...
The quote does not mention how wars are covered, just if you do not learn the lessons or know about history, you are condemned to repeat it and people will repeat and repeat this phrase mindlessly when discussing wars in particular. It's highly suspicious BS, as if they are simply filling a page without putting serious thought into it. The example you just provided is proof!
So, you seem to have two problems....
#1 is reading comprehension. I'm simply comparing and contrasting two similar kinds of wars and explaining the similar reaction people had. That's exactly the point of your topic/quote. You need to go back and read what I wrote again. This time do it slowly and move your lips if you need to...
#2 you seem to think that there's ONLY ONE LESSON TO LEARN FROM HISTORY/WAR. That's simply not true and suggests that you suffer from poor theory of mind in addition to poor reading skills.
I pity you.
You just misunderstood, GS. The quote I referred to was the one about history repeating itself, not your quote which in all fairness was a quote, too, just not as renown but still equally as flawed.
GoonSquad
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Age: 54
Gender: Male
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Location: International House of Paincakes...
13 Feb 2014, 10:08 pm
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
You just misunderstood, GS. The quote I referred to was the one about history repeating itself, not your quote which in all fairness was a quote, too, just not as renown but still equally as flawed.
Umm, no, I understood perfectly. I WAS referring to your history quote and you still have those problems.
Nice try though....
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