I think I've understood the social issue in Aspergers

Page 2 of 2 [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

dianthus
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Nov 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,138

07 Mar 2014, 4:31 pm

qawer wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I don't know about anyone else but not being part of the group doesn't exactly 'motivate' me. I wasn't a 'loner' throughout public school by choice, I didn't like being excluded and picked on at all. I would have loved to be included and accepted despite my oddness.


It was in that sense I meant "not being part of the group", even though I realize I should have stated that more clearly.

If someone accepts your oddness without any picking or bullying, you are not truly included in the group, because your ranking in the group is not being challenged. As a result you are equal to the group members. I should also had mentioned my definition of a 'group': In a group, people are not equals. You are not truly included in a group before your "place" in the group has been determined.

I think many people with AS desire that: being accepted by a group as an equal, while ignoring how much you can contribute with to the group, which eventually equates not being picked at.

I feel that way too.


I think this is the key to the whole thing, it's not that none of us ever want to be included in a group, it's that we can't join groups on all the terms and conditions of NTs. When NTs form groups it's as if they have an implicit social contract, with a lot of fine print.

We ALL participate in social groups, unless you live completely alone in the woods or the desert like a true solo hunter. It's not just small groups like friend groups or workplace groups. Pretty much anything involving the exchange of money, goods, or services forms a group. Insurance is a type of modern day group hunting. If you buy insurance, you are joining a group. Everyone who buys insurance from that company pools their money and resources together in a cooperative agreement, and puts trust in the leaders of that company to manage those resources.

Any kind of employment, other than totally independent self-employment, is group hunting. I work for a large company, and I'll never meet 99.9% of the other people who are part of the company, but everyone in the company collaborates together to "hunt." The company has a hierarchical structure and employees receive the benefits of the group hunting according to how they are ranked in the company. The people at the top receive the biggest share. A person's rank is explicitly stated by their position in the company, but in most workplaces there will also be implicit ranking going on among peers.



qawer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,252

07 Mar 2014, 7:52 pm

Norny wrote:

I can see why this would make sense at first glance, though improving social status and fitting in aren't really the prime goals of the average NT. There is far more to an NT individual than improving social status and fitting in, they can be just as intellectual as any individual with AS.


I do not want to start an argument, I am only curious.

What action(s) do you think NTs take that is not aimed at improving social status?

The more I think it over, the harder it is to come up with examples. I mean sports is for example just another way of determining who is the best, i.e. who can contribute to the group the most. It is all about group acceptance, and social status is just a measure of success. The most successful get the best mates - look at how praised professional footballers are!



Last edited by qawer on 07 Mar 2014, 8:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

qawer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,252

07 Mar 2014, 8:00 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
linatet wrote:
I disagree. For me it doesn't make sense to say aspies don't want to feel included and nt's do. Also what would be this solo hunting thing? Doesn't make sense. I think we have to accept being autistic is not a particular evolution advantage. Even because autistic ratio is very small.
If all autism is a disadvantage because we would probably be killed in a ritual on traditional societies. Social interaction is crucial in traditional societies and also we wouldn't be able to do the work and resources are scarce. And we would be different, seen as influenciated by demons etc :lol:


There is a theory that in ancient hunter-gatherer tribes, the few aspiemen there were would have acted as scouts, searching out large game and reporting back to the hunting party. So if the tribe had 100 able-bodied men, 98 of them would be group hunters, 2 would be solo scouts.

The scouts may not have hunted, but would have been tolerated by the tribe for their tracking skills (requiring good geographic comprehension and attention to detail at locating animal tracks, etc.) . However, they would have been the lowest of the low when it came time to mating, as strong hunters would have been more desirable.

Sort of ironic, the most individualistic tribe members in this theory existed mainly to aid the group as a whole, ensuring group survival, though they themselves were often the least likely to mate.


Great post ezbzbfcg2.

I have thought about that myself. That people with AS can been seen as people with special skills merely existing so as to aid the survival of the NT group. Without AS people (like Einstein) some inventions likely never had seen the day light.

I have decided to completely deny devoting my life to that. I do not work for some "big system", I work for individuals.

I refuse to let NT society exploit my being. I am not their slave, never will be.



linatet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Sep 2013
Age: 25
Gender: Female
Posts: 934
Location: beloved Brazil

07 Mar 2014, 8:25 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
linatet wrote:
I disagree. For me it doesn't make sense to say aspies don't want to feel included and nt's do. Also what would be this solo hunting thing? Doesn't make sense. I think we have to accept being autistic is not a particular evolution advantage. Even because autistic ratio is very small.
If all autism is a disadvantage because we would probably be killed in a ritual on traditional societies. Social interaction is crucial in traditional societies and also we wouldn't be able to do the work and resources are scarce. And we would be different, seen as influenciated by demons etc :lol:


There is a theory that in ancient hunter-gatherer tribes, the few aspiemen there were would have acted as scouts, searching out large game and reporting back to the hunting party. So if the tribe had 100 able-bodied men, 98 of them would be group hunters, 2 would be solo scouts.

The scouts may not have hunted, but would have been tolerated by the tribe for their tracking skills (requiring good geographic comprehension and attention to detail at locating animal tracks, etc.) . However, they would have been the lowest of the low when it came time to mating, as strong hunters would have been more desirable.

Sort of ironic, the most individualistic tribe members in this theory existed mainly to aid the group as a whole, ensuring group survival, though they themselves were often the least likely to mate.

this theory is interesting but for me it still doesn't make sense. In the early civilized world being an aspie would be a disadvantage, than in Europe and middle east where there have been cities for thousands of years there would be a lower ratio of aspies than in today's hunter-gathered societies. Also even if aspieness is of some use to the group it would still be a disadvantage on mating. Also seems to be common for aspies to get lost anywhere, to have poor motor coordination which would lead to the prey to realize they are there, lack of instinct of sharing information etc which wouldn't be desirable characteristics for scouts.



qawer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,252

07 Mar 2014, 8:41 pm

As examples of the socialization types I mentioned previously:

Semi-social = public transportation (everyone are equals, everyone decides on their own)

Full-social = Workplace offices (people are not equals, there is a hierarchy (pecking order) to be respected)



Norny
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2013
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,487

07 Mar 2014, 11:14 pm

qawer wrote:
Norny wrote:

I can see why this would make sense at first glance, though improving social status and fitting in aren't really the prime goals of the average NT. There is far more to an NT individual than improving social status and fitting in, they can be just as intellectual as any individual with AS.


I do not want to start an argument, I am only curious.

What action(s) do you think NTs take that is not aimed at improving social status?

The more I think it over, the harder it is to come up with examples. I mean sports is for example just another way of determining who is the best, i.e. who can contribute to the group the most. It is all about group acceptance, and social status is just a measure of success. The most successful get the best mates - look at how praised professional footballers are!


In terms of a social setting, there would be too many actions to list. I believe you are right that there are also so many actions an NT could do in such a situation that would be aimed at improving social status.

Sports may be a way of determining who is the best, but personally I don't see how that's directly related to improving social status. If you argue that sports are aimed at improving social status, then you could argue the same for most intellectual studies. There are many people on this board that take pride in their intelligence. If they have AS, how could you say that is not trying to improve social status, based purely on what you are saying?

I'm not looking for an argument either, I just find it somewhat stimulating discussing these things.


_________________
Unapologetically, Norny. :rambo:
-chronically drunk


LeftWeems
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2014
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 62

07 Mar 2014, 11:35 pm

i don't know. You do bring up some interesting points. I think I'm someone who wants to be more social and don't flame quote on quote more NT like. But I get social anxiety. Then again another part of me does value my independence and not having to fit into group dynamics because I really do value being my own man and unique individual.



pensieve
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,204
Location: Sydney, Australia

08 Mar 2014, 12:15 am

I like qawer's theories.

To me the whole being more independent thing is like our archetype, what we start out being like (or what our ancestors were like) then over the years through exposure to other people who get along with others fine and actually want to we begin to feel like who we are is a bit odd, so we try to fit in as well. I remember the days when I didn't much care about fitting in.

Then the whole extroverted group just complicates things.

Qawer's social NT model helps me when I think about the NTs I know though and not get hurt as much when I don't successfully fit in.

I've also noticed through my observations that you can talk to an NT one on one and they seem intelligent and independent of thought but get them with a group of people and they will be agreeing with the dominant member of the group. I've even had people agree or hear me out when I seem to be the dominating one. I can be very blunt and argumentative. I think this is merely to protect people from confrontation, so unless the person get too insulting it's ok just to let them think you agree with them.


_________________
My band photography blog - http://lostthroughthelens.wordpress.com/
My personal blog - http://helptheywantmetosocialise.wordpress.com/


qawer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,252

08 Mar 2014, 6:19 am

pensieve wrote:
I've also noticed through my observations that you can talk to an NT one on one and they seem intelligent and independent of thought but get them with a group of people and they will be agreeing with the dominant member of the group. I've even had people agree or hear me out when I seem to be the dominating one. I can be very blunt and argumentative. I think this is merely to protect people from confrontation, so unless the person get too insulting it's ok just to let them think you agree with them.


Exactly. NTs can actually be quite weak one on one, because they badly need company, so if you restrict what company you give them, you can actually be in charge.

But when they are in a group, you no longer have that power in your hands, because they already have company, so in that situation you will get bullied if you do not try to fit in hard enough.

NTs badly need leaders and social structure, unless they are themselves a leader in which case they need people to lead. They see no purpose in doing things unless they in some way get validated by the group. What do you think all the pictures uploaded to facebook is for? People with AS are more likely to find meaning in doing things only because it benefits themselves to do them.

What makes NTs ("in general") feel good is that they get validated by the group because of their performance. This ensures them that the group accepts them, which means their group-hunting options are ensured in the future.


All this translates to the attitudes of cats and dogs.

A dog (subconsciously) thinks: "Wow, they accept me, I feel so good - and some dogs fit in worse than me, meaning I will not get rejected from the group before them."

A cat subconsciously thinks: "Wow, I have no leaders, I must be a King - I got to remain in that position by staying independent."


Dogs have a moderate sense of confidence, because they see themselves as below their owners. Since cats do not put up with having leaders they act as if they own their owner and the world in general. The net result is they actually do. :D