question for Liberals

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Sad but true.

What, you think "law" is some sort of divine code that exists independent of humanity?


It's not just private behavior. Why set up toilets in private stalls? Why not set out urinals in public? Who is harmed when a man flashes people, or for that matter masturbates in public?
There are codes of behavior in any civilization, and that's a part of what makes civilization possible. There are things that are acceptable in the country (letting your dog poop on public property without picking it up) that are not acceptable in urban areas, because the press of people (and dogs) makes the cumulative consequences greater.


Can you think in principles? Once you deny society the right to regulate disturbing but not directly, individually harmful behavior, where do you draw the line, and on what principle?

See above. So, the people who urinate next to my dojo's doorway aren't committing a crime, as far as you're concerned?
Fines or behavioral prohibitions (revocation of licenses, etc), without the theoretical threat of force behind them.

LKL, I think you probably need to take a step back. You disagree with luanqi, fair enough, but now you are equating soft drugs, gay marriage and Sunday trading with public masturbation. I am fairly sure you support decriminalising soft drugs and legalising gay marriage, and I would be surprised if you are a vocal supporter of Sunday trading laws. Essentially, I get the impression you're arguing on ideological grounds, rather than what you actually believe in.

We aren't wild animals, we are domesticated. We created a system where it's no longer viable in most places to hunt and gather your own food. It's clearly hate for the poor, since conservatives think nothing of wasting billions on the military, redundant spy agencies, tax breaks for their rich cronies, and laws that enable money to be sheltered from taxes. They demonize the poor by pointing to unrepresentative example of people abusing the system. So what if a tiny minority of people are dependent? Is that such a bad thing? Forget minimum wage, everyone should get a minimum salary from the government, so that poverty is eliminated. If we don't have to worry about getting basic needs met, we can spend more time on creative endeavors, and making the world a better place. We have the money to do this. A freaking High School in one state was able to raise 60 million dollars from the public to build a football stadium. Imagine if we really cared about education, we could eliminate a big cause of poverty. But we aren't interested in doing that, just blaming the victims.

you are absolutely correct about what I support, but luanqi has made this about the concept of what laws can and cannot regulate, rather than about the specific issues. It is not about the specific issues, but about whether or not the state has a right to regulate "private behavior."
My point is that what the state legitimately regulates is not always just about harming other people or about whether they're only doing something to their own body.