Games you hate that everybody raves about

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Misery
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18 Aug 2016, 5:30 am

Extrication wrote:
Misery wrote:
People often go on about a "horror" element, for instance. I'm sorry, but there is not, nor was there ever, a horror element to Doom 1 or 2. For number 3, yes, but 3 was awful... But yeah, those two games had no horror elements to them. None. You werent some scared protagonist running around a survival horror area, you werent some normal dude pushed into an unexpected quest to save the world. You were freaking DOOM GUY. Basically some sort of hyper-Rambo in space. Doom Guy is afraid of NOTHING. The monsters are afraid of HIM. You went in, and splattered EVERYTHING. Again, the Rambo comparison.


So the concept of demons from Hell invading our dimension and committing genocide against all of mankind doesn't fit into the broader spectrum of horror?

I strongly disagree with your assertion. In spite of technical limitations, I have always sensed that there was a deliberate effort on the part of the level designers to suggest an all-seeing adversarial force -- a being that pulls all the strings, that stalks your every move, and looks upon you as a curiosity. You are like a determined little rat, constantly forced into mazes designed to test and to punish. And like a mouse held under the paws of a predatory cat, it could kill you at any moment, however it would prefer to savor the moment instead... Sounds pretty traumatic and horrifying to me.

Whereas all of this was only implied in the first two games, the third actually gave this omnipresent antagonist a voice. (I quite like Doom 3 for what it is, though admittedly it took me a number of years to finally come around.)

Also, just because Doom Guy is a bonafide hard ass and a stoic doesn't necessarily imply that he isn't utterly terrified of the situations he finds himself in. (Who wouldn't be if placed in his shoes?) Fear is the strongest motivator for survival. How else could he have made it to the cheese each and every time, whilst so many of his peers were reduced to various states of ornamental decor?

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Nor did Doom 1 or 2 use jump scares. The horrible diseased poodle used jump scares, which were frankly awful, but the others? No. Your non-poodle enemies were WAY too slow to do jumpscares. ALL of them in the first two games. No monster in either game moved fast.


Doom 3 was guilty of spamming jump scares to the extent that they were rendered largely ineffectual, that much we can agree upon. But no jump scares in the first two games? Surely you jest! Monster closets in confined pitch black spaces, anyone?

Also, I refer to my earlier example of turning a corner in a very tight maze and being surprised by a well-placed Hell-knight (or maybe it was a Baron of Hell...) that was waiting patiently to ambush and sodomize a lone space marine such as myself. Slow things can creep up on you, especially when you are impeded.

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And even when a hidden wall with jerks behind it opens, it's not exactly a fast scare. The game makes a loud "BLOOOONK" noise as a wall moves rather slowly out of the way.


Which is scarier: a loud noise after a period of relative silence, or the split-second realization of what said noise portends?



Hmm, you know, when I ponder these sorts of things.... it's interesting to think about just how subjective stuff like this really is.

Horror games, for example. I know people that just... really shy away from these. Too scary! I can understand that.

But I've always tended to have.... different reactions to stuff. If someone's playing a particularly scary horror game, they might have a moment where some monster leaps out, and their response is basically "OMG AAAAAAHHHHH gotta run gotta run it's going to kill me! Nooooooo!". My response is to charge at it and attempt to hit it with a stick or something. In games, to me, monsters of any sort promise the potential for exciting combat! Doesnt matter if it's a cute miniboss in a Kirby game, or some nightmarish, eldritch Lovecraftian horror: I'm going to charge at it. It's what I do. It is exciting and fun!

And even IRL, I tend to look at things like this. Someone points out, I dunno, some haunted looking place? Typical reaction to that for many is "Oh god, that looks terrifying". My reaction is "ooooooh I WANNA GO IN THERE. Let's explore!" Tend to be comfortable around/with creepy things/places. No, I dont know why.

But it's easy to NOT apply these ideas when explaining stuff like Doom there. Now granted, even considering my views on that stuff, I still really dont think it was ever meant as a horror game. The whole "Rambo" idea was WAY too prevalent, and your characters ability to kick the everloving crap out of EVERYTHING was just... too strong. To me, in that game, YOU were the monster. All the forces of Hell couldnt stop you. Alot of the time, even on the highest difficulties, it wasnt a "battle", but instead was what I call a "rampage". I mean, hell, Doom 4 just furthers the idea that Doom Guy is A: the ultimate badass, and B: afraid of literally NOTHING. It also implies... rather heavily... that some of the leading forces of Hell actually are seriously afraid of the guy. Like, freaking terrified of him. And he absolutely knows this. This is the sort of guy that'll leap right into a demon's face ("demon" being the original name of the "Pinkies", I always thought Pinkie was a dumb name) JUST because he thinks it'll be fun to jam it's own jaw into it's ear. He doesnt HAVE to do that. He just WANTS to. The game does a very good job of showcasing Doom Guy's personality without ever needing him to say anything. It's hard to explain what I mean by that, but anyone that's played it would probably know what I mean. So this all just goes that much further from the horror stuff, because this is EXACTLY the same idea I had about the character back during the first two games. Everything about those games just furthered that in so many ways. Even some of the goofy tricks you sometimes had the option to do. Do I *have* to PUNCH this group of Imps to death rather than use the shotgun? Of course not. It's not exactly a tactical move. But it IS fun, so I'll bloody well do it! Even just the combat situations... the games tended to give a sense of overwhelming power, which affected perception of battles. Like "Really? They need to send FORTY monsters at me at the same time to stop me? And it's not even going to work! Bwa ha haaah!! !"

Now, Doom 3, which I loathe, THAT was a horror game. This is part of why I loathed it. It did NONE of those things I mention above. None of it. But Doom 1 and 2? Nah. To me they're absolute pure action/adventure, with some pretty decent exploration thrown in for fun.

Though again, that differing views bit I talked about. You mention the thing with the monster closets there, yes? Well, for me, there's two things about that: Firstly, the monster closet revelations are SLOW to me. They arent sudden events. They're doors that move like they're in some sort of thick sludge. The game doesnt do anything fast enough to catch me off guard, so it now occurs to me that this is where some of the "jumpscare" effect just... doesnt happen. Happens for others maybe. Doesnt happen for me. Something that comes at me slowly isnt going to make me jump. And this is followed of course by my reaction to everything else, which is to just charge at whatever the door revealed. Provided of course that what it revealed isnt a pit of acid. That would be dumb. And really, this is how these games always were for me. I cant even exaggerate the description of my own speed; it's my defining ability when it comes to gaming (and is UTTERLY USELESS in some types of games, yes indeed it is!). Even projectiles in those first two games are slow to me. The Cyberdemon? I stand right in front of him when fighting and shift position as he fires. His attack just isnt fast enough. Same with... everything else. There's ONE, and only one, enemy that I will not approach in that game: The Spider Mastermind. It's impossible to "dodge" his attack. Gotta use cover. But he's a rare encounter. So yeah, my playstyle just lends to this sort of thing. It does have it's downsides though... I can get TOO berserk... but that's another story.

I do understand that other people will have completely different talents and ability sets, when it comes to gaming. But... it's hard for me to seperate that from my own strengths/weaknesses and spot that. Sometimes I just dont, so... yeah, that's part of this, eh?


And I'm not going to say that I dont LIKE the idea, gameplay-wise, of monster closets. When I'm designing levels for Doom or games like it, of COURSE i'm going to use these. I may not even notice the jumpscare factor, but I DO notice the fun factor. I love when games do this sort of thing. Even if it doesnt provide a scare, it DOES provide unexpected tactical situations. Like "Huh. Enemies from over THERE, huh? And over THERE at the same time? And a big ranged guy on that ledge that wasnt there before. How do I go about dealing with this crazy situation?". That sort of thing. Does make for good gameplay, so I dont discount their use.

Though, there's also another aspect to all of this: That editor that Doom 4 has. One thing I realized going into the whole thing: If I didnt like the campaign levels... I'd just bloody well make the levels that *I* want to play. If the campaign wasnt going to do labyrinthine mazes, monster closets, hidden secret items (I love secrets), real levels of challenge? I could just do it myself! Which was something I'd end up doing regardless of wether or not I liked the campaign (fortunately, I do like it). Same way I looked at the old Doom games, too, I made the levels that I wanted to experience. And this game DOES give me a nice, wide array of different monsters, weapons, and items to use, so I absolutely have the ability to do that. It's missing a couple of monsters that I'd rather like to see (There's a Revenant, but where's my good buddy the Pain Elemental? Is he on vacation or something?) but it's still pretty freaking good. So that does up my view of the game.


Anyway, that's just some thoughts on it. And it really is fascinating to me to spot differing viewpoints on the same thing, when it comes to aspects of game design and even presentation. I could talk about that stuff all day, much to everyone's dismay.

Here's an interesting question though, just out of pure curiosity about a differing viewpoint: If Doom, the early games, gives you more of a "horror" vibe... what would you consider to be more of a "pure" action game? Any examples you can think of?



dan_aspie
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18 Aug 2016, 6:39 am

Pokemon Go. I don't hate it exactly, but I see it as a missed opportunity to create something awesome. It could have integrated many familiar mechanics from the handheld games, combined with something like "mobile 2 mobile battles/trading". Also not handing the project to some unknown entity like Niantic would have been a massive plus too!



Extrication
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18 Aug 2016, 5:39 pm

Misery wrote:
The whole "Rambo" idea was WAY too prevalent, and your characters ability to kick the everloving crap out of EVERYTHING was just... too strong. To me, in that game, YOU were the monster. All the forces of Hell couldnt stop you.


Despite his proficiency in combat, your character lacks the agency to protect himself from that which is incorporeal. Like the overwhelming majority of survivors in the Doom universe, he too could just as easily succumb to demonic possession or suffer being transformed into a lost soul. His spinal column could literally rip itself out of his torso, and without any prior warning. All of the bullets, rockets, and plasma cells of the UAC would do zilch to prevent such a fate from befalling him. So, why is he (as well as a few other lone marines) allowed to advance when all of the pieces could easily be removed from the chessboard without such pageantry? Hence, my analogy of a cat tormenting a mouse. It is a game within a game, a cruel charade belying the truth...

Doom Guy is only allowed to remain at the party because he provides ample entertainment for his host.

Quote:
If Doom, the early games, gives you more of a "horror" vibe... what would you consider to be more of a "pure" action game? Any examples you can think of?


Clearly, we each have a different conception of what constitutes horror. I do very much consider the original games to be functionally "pure" shooters, however I also recognize them as being thematically "horror" games. Need the two be mutually exclusive?

I've played enough of the new entry to know that it is ignorant of it's own rich history...oblivious to those first-person role-playing titles that inspired the creation of it's predecessors. In my eyes, it is nothing more than a misguided, facile and inferior product that reeks of fear, desperation and greed -- having been thrown together in haste by Id Software in an effort to appease their corporate masters; like most modern AAA titles, it was assembled by a committee and with too many cooks in the kitchen. Doom 64 may not have been as fast paced, but I consider that one to be a hell of a lot more palatable and evocative than what we were given earlier this year. (And I can play it for free.)

Though if it scratches an itch, more power to you I suppose.

But to answer your question, I can name off a fairly lengthy list of pure action games -- from past to present -- that I'd sooner waste my time playing. One example is Blood (1997), which features key elements lifted from Doom (undead and demonic hoards, monster closets, etc.) however lacking the aforementioned ubiquitous paranormal aspect (which carried over into Doom 3, mind you, in the form of disembodied laughter and other malicious taunting). It sports an original setting -- an alternate 1930s -- and it stars a colorful protagonist: a psychopathic, wisecracking undead gunslinger. It features what is perhaps the best weapons roster of any shooter ever made, providing the player with such lethal toys as a pitch fork, a flare gun, a double-barreled shotgun, a Tommy gun, a Tesla cannon, bundles of dynamite (including remote and proximity variants), an improvised flame thrower (consisting of a can of aerosol with a Zippo lighter), and even a voodoo doll. It has skirmishes in wildly imaginative levels, such as a train in motion (predating Soldier of Fortune by several years), a dark carnival (replete with attractions), and a haunted house ride that is located in the middle of a black forest. It has massive explosions, with ludicrous showers of blood and organs flying every which way. It is inspired, it has character, and it has a soul.

Overall, I can understand how a certain type of gamer could immerse him/herself in the functionality of a game. But I do not belong to that class; I require and I expect more, as a consumer and as a lover of the arts. It depresses me to see how far the industry has degraded as a whole since the 90s. There is no reverence anymore, because there is hardly anything to revere. Once upon a time, I could walk into a Babbages and spend literally an hour or more perusing shelves of promising, factory sealed computer games. Now...there is only Gamestop, which peddles people's unwanted console wares like a pawn shop. I wouldn't spend five minutes in there.



catherinewalker
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19 Aug 2016, 12:42 am

Every fps since is just a ripoff of that game, which I've played already. If I'm going to invest in a new game, I want a new game, not one that is repackaged and resold with new box art.