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TallyMan
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31 Mar 2014, 5:48 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Rainbows are caused by the refraction of light through rain drops, splitting the white light into its component colours. Rainbows aren't created by a god, unicorns or my little pony.
And who do you think created light and water? Science has already proven the universe isn't eternal, and you can't have natural laws without nature itself.


Nobody created light or water. Hydrogen is a basic element formed shortly after the big bang consisting of one proton and one electron. Oxygen is formed during the nuclear fires of stars and propelled into the universe along with all other elements when stars die and go supernova. The compound water is formed from hydrogen and oxygen fusing together. Visible light is just a narrow range of electromagnetic radiation that is visible to the human eye typically produced by the transition of electrons from higher to lower energy levels within atoms. Neither light nor water is made by a magical sky fairy.

The universe began around 13.8 billion years ago as a consequence of the big bang, so what? Your final statement is meaningless.


Tallyman, despite you advising me that spending time and effort trying to educate or at least challenge people like Moviefan was a waste of energy, I see you cannot leave this sh** alone, nor should you.
Moviefan, it would appear is wantonly foolish, wilfully ignorant, and a complete and utter waste of energy with regard to trying to discuss anything natural with him.


It did get me wondering if Moviefan has ever attended school. His comments are what I'd expect from a first grader. Maybe he was home schooled by religious fanatics or a group such as the Amish and learned nothing about the physical world or science? Maybe he has significant learning difficulties? He gives the impression of not knowing or understanding the most basic facts about the real world.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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31 Mar 2014, 7:49 am

The question we all demand an answer ?


Whyyyy did the big bang happen?

And how did it? No one has been able to provide a definitive answer that I know of. Of course I don't believe two Godly hands were mushing together protons. I just wanna know why it occurred and what existed before.



aghogday
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31 Mar 2014, 10:35 am

The level of intellectual bullying on this site..is kind of hilarious..

Reality..has 'kNOw'

mind...

IT IS NEVER DETERMINED
BY HUMANS...

but 'they' EFFECT IT

WITH

AFFECT..

NOT SILLY WORDS..THAT HOUSE NO LIGHT OR LIFE....

AND THAT'S A FACT...

AN EVIDENCED SCIENTIFIC ONE...

Sure there is deficit in learning...HERE AND tHere...

But sure MORE...

there is deficit in 'HE ART'..

Language is designed moreover for creative art ...
OVER logic..

HE is the EGO..

ART is the creative experience..
the truth of what humans can be..if allowed..
to simply be awakened as what they are
FULLY as BEING human...

AND THAT IS THE LARGEST DEFICIT OF ALL....
THE ONE OF..
BROKEN
H
E
.
.
ART

for any social animal..

And THAT IS A SCIENTIFIC FACT....

AS WELL...

The more time i spend on this site..the more convinced i am
that more than 75% of what is described as higher functioning
autism..is culturally influenced...AND INDUCED...

Set an 'autistic leaning' nature FREE in nature with movement
and creative arts...

And there is more likely FEWER difficulties with reciprocal social communication..
if the social demands are not too severe....

And in my experience with the autistic leaning natures..i observe..in literally
tens of thousands of human interactions working with the general public for over two decades...
the artists..were usually the
ones..
who were successful in the FULL 'HEART' oF LIFE.....

While the folks that focused ON A life of mechanical cognition..
had half a 'he art'..and a substantial source of disability..IN
RECIPROCAL SOCIAL COMMUNICATION....

HUMANS OVERALL CREATE WHO THEY ARE...

WITH WILL AND OPPORTUNITY...

TAKE AWAY EITHER..AND IT IS EXTREMELY HARD
TO THRIVE IN LIFE..
OR IN taking ONE WAY..to the exclusion of the other.. either social(EMPATHIC) cognition
or mechanical cognition..

But possible..

YES..with a 'little help' from
friends..if folks can discern who REAL FRIENDS ARE....

AND THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE is limited in expressing full emotive.. visually
FULLY representative human 'HEART'..

ERGO.. THIS OUT OF THE BOX STYLE OF COMMUNICATION...

TO MAKE REAL CHANGE.. ONE MUST DARE TO BE DIFFERENT...

OTHERWISE..there is overriding potential for HUMAN STAGNATION..
WHICH IS WHAT I CONSIDER A large part of human hell...

BUT WITH CREATIVE WORK AND WILL...

THE COCOON OF AuTIST...
TRANSFORMS...

TO ArTIST...

i ain't no caterpillar anymore..

i
butter fly
much better...as
FREE

OH and by the way..thanks..!

as usual..you folks continue to inspire my little
mission in life from the REAL GOD..NO MYTH...

http://katiemiafrederick.com/2014/03/31/he-art/

AND nah..no worries..i won't highlight IT here..that
pArt is already fulFILLed...


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Last edited by aghogday on 31 Mar 2014, 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

trollcatman
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31 Mar 2014, 10:43 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
The question we all demand an answer ?


Whyyyy did the big bang happen?

And how did it? No one has been able to provide a definitive answer that I know of. Of course I don't believe two Godly hands were mushing together protons. I just wanna know why it occurred and what existed before.


The Big Bang created time as well, so it is hard to speak of "before" the Big Bang. The BB created our little stretch of spacetime and what is "before" or "outside" is pretty hard to find out. Is there even time outside of our universe?



TallyMan
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31 Mar 2014, 12:04 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
The question we all demand an answer ?


Whyyyy did the big bang happen?

And how did it? No one has been able to provide a definitive answer that I know of. Of course I don't believe two Godly hands were mushing together protons. I just wanna know why it occurred and what existed before.


I suspect the answer will turn out to be quite mundane and highly unsatisfying for most people. i.e. someone will figure out the big bang is simply following a mathematical formula whose origin passes through zero. A simplistic analogy would be Y = X^2. In this analogy think of Y as the size of the universe and X as time elapsed:
Image


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ModusPonens
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31 Mar 2014, 2:33 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQFUpOOINd8[/youtube]There is no god there never will be there are no unicorns or skyfairies or magic or my little pony in real life this is reality! Santa clause isnt real neither is the easter bunny nor the sandman or jack frost or the tooth fairy!


I didn't watch this video, but it's just to inform you that this guy was a false guru. If you don't believe there are true gurus, at least know that this guy was ill intentioned _ as opposed to the well intentioned.


Anyway, Movie Fan, is there anything in the bible that says that, if done, guarantees that god will kill you? Like saying his name 3 times? Or saying his name backwards 7 times? Something like that? I would like to try it out... 8)

And you can have the result of my experiment. :)



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31 Mar 2014, 6:40 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Tallyman, despite you advising me that spending time and effort trying to educate or at least challenge people like Moviefan was a waste of energy, I see you cannot leave this sh** alone, nor should you.
Moviefan, it would appear is wantonly foolish, wilfully ignorant, and a complete and utter waste of energy with regard to trying to discuss anything natural with him.

...

Some (generally those positing pseudobabble) find challenging Faith as offensive and tantamount to bullying, it is not. All we asked from these people is to explain their beliefs WITHOUT misrepresenting the known facts. Faith may have its place in society (I suspect we would be better off without it) but this should not mean the likes of MF,LJ, Nambo et al should have free reign to discuss creation, Noah, and Macroevolution vs Microevolution as if it was anything more than fantasy.

Once again Moviefan2k4 and all the other YEC's if you have credible information regarding these events lets have an honest debate.


Yeah, if Moviefan2k4 has a YouTube channel where he spews the same mix of nonsense and misinformation as he does in this forum, then that it makes it more necessary than ever for more and more people to see how unsupported by evidence his opinions are. Think of the children!

Notice that I said Moviefan2k4 is spreading misinformation. I did not use the word "lies" (even though what he says is false) because I am giving Moviefan2k4 the benefit of the doubt here to be charitable to someone who could (based on the content of his own posts) possibly be mentally deficient. Apparently Moviefan2k4 is too wlilfully ignorant to ever check out what the actual facts are when he is challenged on his b.s., but maybe he has checked them out and he is truly unable to understand. Or he could be insane, and usually that is not anyone's fault so again I am not saying he is a bad person. Of course being wicked is the last choice of the four options in the Dawkins scheme of describing those who deny the fact of evolution.. But even if Moviefan2k4 is not deliberately spreading misinformation for some evil purpose, the results of his doing so (if left unchallenged) most definitely are harmful to our society, our species, our planet, and to Christianity! By continuing to deny demonstrable reality, he is making Christians and Christianity look really really stupid.

Moviefan2k4, if you really love your country AND love Christ, consider educating yourself (if it is even possible for you) so you will not continue to spread falsehoods that make the USA less competitive in the global market and that could very well turn people away from Christ too. I am not a Christian myself, and it isn't the fact of evolution that turned me away but the blatant dishonesty and lies of creationist sources.

I cannot believe God would try to trick us when everything we can observe and measure from every branch of science is consistent with and points to the reality that evolution happens (yes, even macro evolution).


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Last edited by TheBicyclingGuitarist on 31 Mar 2014, 7:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.

simon_says
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31 Mar 2014, 6:47 pm

You know, he's just wrong. It's not the end of the world and we don't have to be unpleasant about it.

And now a word from Pat Robertson:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWAbr-SoMAs[/youtube]

Pat Robertson lecturing creationists on being silly. This might be the final sign before the apocalypse.



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31 Mar 2014, 7:00 pm

Skepticism and not believing in a book of fairytales followed by scientific evidence debunking myths does not equal hate or bullying! Yet religious people get extremely angry and franticly find an argument to stump those skeptics but those strawmen get easily torn down time and time again.


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31 Mar 2014, 7:03 pm

I have nothing personal against Moviefan2k4. As the Bible teaches us to do, I hate the lies but love the liar. With the access to information made possible by the internet, more and more people are finding out how wrong certain denominations of some religions are about certain subjects and leaving the churches in droves. Of course anyone can find anything they want to see on the internet whether or not it is true, just as anyone can support just about any position imaginable by quoting verses from somewhere in the Bible and/or by saying their interpretation of those verses is the only correct one. But generally, the truth will come out.

That Pat Robertson has made a public statement against Young Earth Creationists is a good sign. In my lifetime I might even see some fundie branches of Christianity finally admit they were wrong. Or of course if they don't admit they are wrong and more and more people see that they are (because of the increased amount of verifiable information available all the time and increased access to that information), in my lifetime I might get to see some fundie branches fade into obscurity as failed crackpot cults. Either outcome would be tremendously satisfying. I love it when lies are exposed and truth prevails.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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31 Mar 2014, 7:39 pm

trollcatman wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
The question we all demand an answer ?


Whyyyy did the big bang happen?

And how did it? No one has been able to provide a definitive answer that I know of. Of course I don't believe two Godly hands were mushing together protons. I just wanna know why it occurred and what existed before.


The Big Bang created time as well, so it is hard to speak of "before" the Big Bang. The BB created our little stretch of spacetime and what is "before" or "outside" is pretty hard to find out. Is there even time outside of our universe?

Time doesn't really exist at least not like you think. There really isn't any time. Time is just a measurement humans created to establish order in their world but it doesn't really exist.
The universe does exist, obviously and was created somehow. There are still unanswered questions.
Space-time is not the same as time like we experience looking at our clocks.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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31 Mar 2014, 7:42 pm

TallyMan wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
The question we all demand an answer ?


Whyyyy did the big bang happen?

And how did it? No one has been able to provide a definitive answer that I know of. Of course I don't believe two Godly hands were mushing together protons. I just wanna know why it occurred and what existed before.


I suspect the answer will turn out to be quite mundane and highly unsatisfying for most people. i.e. someone will figure out the big bang is simply following a mathematical formula whose origin passes through zero. A simplistic analogy would be Y = X^2. In this analogy think of Y as the size of the universe and X as time elapsed:
Image

I don't expect God to be the answer but I don't think of God like most because I am gnostic and dualistic which just means I see beyond matter and believe it just confuses people.
I just want to know what happened to spark such an event. An equation might explain the event but what actually happened to make it occur? Anything? Or did it just occur or did it ever occur and that's just an error in human perception?



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31 Mar 2014, 7:45 pm

The thing that saddens me is that people who really adhere to these things are trying their best to do what they believe was right, what they were inculturated to see as right, and quite a few who haven't had to chance to read the Bible, or in other cases the Quran, are educated with the condensation and refiguring of the book - something that ends up sounding much more coherant but ignoring some of the most keynote features of what's in it.

So many people don't have the time or ability to read through 2,000 page books, I consider myself phenomenally lucky not to be in that category. Others who have had to work 40 hours a week from a relatively early age, support a family, support an ailing parent, etc. etc. or had to fight to survive - have to take the people teaching these things on their honor and even those people are stuck in a position where there's a certain cultural 'straight and narrow', currently documentary thesis for the whole bible, and if they don't stick to that they're pegged as part of the problem or, especially since 1948 and the refounding of Israel, they'd be seen as part of the fallen church. It's not a good situation for anyone really.



TallyMan
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01 Apr 2014, 4:02 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
The question we all demand an answer ?


Whyyyy did the big bang happen?

And how did it? No one has been able to provide a definitive answer that I know of. Of course I don't believe two Godly hands were mushing together protons. I just wanna know why it occurred and what existed before.


I suspect the answer will turn out to be quite mundane and highly unsatisfying for most people. i.e. someone will figure out the big bang is simply following a mathematical formula whose origin passes through zero. A simplistic analogy would be Y = X^2. In this analogy think of Y as the size of the universe and X as time elapsed:
Image

I don't expect God to be the answer but I don't think of God like most because I am gnostic and dualistic which just means I see beyond matter and believe it just confuses people.
I just want to know what happened to spark such an event. An equation might explain the event but what actually happened to make it occur? Anything? Or did it just occur or did it ever occur and that's just an error in human perception?


I maybe should have tried to explain more. Just like in the equation / graph above. Nothing happened to make the graph move from the point 0, 0 to the right. There was nobody pushing it, no god, no miracle, no spark making it happen, but if you look a teeny weeny bit to the right there is now some space and some time has elapsed. As to what (if anything) is to the left of the graph is not known. Maybe the graph of reality had no extension to the left past zero time. In which case asking what existed prior to the big bang would be meaningless to ask as there was no before, time did not exist.

The analogy still holds though. There was nothing, no space no time then there is space and time but no spark making it happen, it just happens following a mathematical equation, just like in the graph. I expect the universe will be found to follow a very similar principle.


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01 Apr 2014, 5:48 am

GinBlossoms wrote:
Sometimes, I hate God, and I hate death. I'm very furious now. Why can't he make things go back to where they were after 9/11?
Try dropping the idea of omnipotence. It's a type of magic and we don't usually believe in magic the rest of the time, but the superstitious ancient scroll writers did. If God is not magic and can't do impossible things any more than we can, then he has not screwed anyone over.
Instead of the afterlives heaven and hell, try the afterlife ghosts. A rational Occam's razor picture that the spirit simply continues to exist in the same cosmos where we already are, with no paradise, bereft of the power to take any material actions through a body but at least no longer subject to violence.

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
First off, let's point out the obvious: God's not you, me, or anyone else. He's a being unto Himself, answerable to no one aside from promises He's already given.
Not obvious at all. A universal spirit, an infinite dimensional particle held to be everywhere, can't occupy space to the exclusion of all its other contents. For then there would be no contents and none of us would exist. So he can only be the same thing as all the space's contents, including all of us. To those who accept the postulate of spirits at all, it's an ancient idea that has a common sense appeal, that we are all parts of the whole, and the whole universal spirit that some circumstantial experience suggests to exist simply exists as the total we all add up into, the spirit from the infinite angle while we are spirit from the finite point angle. (It's speculation what spirit is, I propose it's the particle form of time.)
We are within God but we perceive God as other because the overwhelming majority of him is other, because we are only a small part.