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Waterfalls
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01 Apr 2014, 11:36 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:
Opi wrote:
"faults" are a matter of opinion. nobody is god and has the right to inflict their opinions on someone else as if they were matters of fact. there are far more constructive ways to communicate concern, to love, and to support anyone. for instance, even in a case where one feels concerned enough to express certain doubts or observations, it's infinitely more loving to do it in the context of that person's strengths, not just constantly strip them down. i've been through it - it is definitely a form of abuse and i'm very sorry your sense of self and self-worth has been shaped in any way by such a person, especially a parent.

at least you have enough of yourself to question what you are being told and the way you are being told. i can tell you without reservation that he has no right to judge you or evaluate you. he is probably projecting his own low-self-worth and self doubts onto you. his evaluation of your character or actions may not even remotely reflect any kind of reality. but in any case, everyone's perceptions are necessarily subjective and distorted and cannot be taken as fact. information maybe, but not a matter of fact. so i wish you great strength, love, and unwavering purpose in examining the self-image he has created for you and learning to question all of it. it's a long road but every turning point is well worth the effort.


But there is of course such a thing as accountability and at least trying to follow a parent's advice, right? Beyond whether or not it is fair for someone's father to drag him/her down that person still has a duty to make an effort and to be held accountable.

We all do the best we can. But it's the parents job to try harder and set the example. Perhaps Bobba has tried to follow his father's advice. Maybe his father is too angry to let things get better right now.



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02 Apr 2014, 5:49 pm

bobba wrote:
he has been throughout my life and still, pointing out my faults, he usually talks several minutes about my weaknesses, he says it with disgust in his eyes and voice, he sounds angry. almost as if he wants to beat me.

why does he do so? In fact, he actually has right about me, but it still makes me sad when he says it. I feel completely empty and useless.


Nothing is right about you feeling empty and useless after such an encounter. You say he is right about you, but maybe you have just internalized his judgments?

I have lived with someone who is exceedingly judgmental, has a very poor delivery method for expressing dissatisfaction, can never apologize, and expresses no desire to change. I have learned to understand it as a kind of mental disorder (or perhaps un-recognized autism) and to get the hell out of the way when it starts coming on. I hope you can do the same.


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Opi
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02 Apr 2014, 6:16 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:
Opi wrote:
"faults" are a matter of opinion. nobody is god and has the right to inflict their opinions on someone else as if they were matters of fact. there are far more constructive ways to communicate concern, to love, and to support anyone. for instance, even in a case where one feels concerned enough to express certain doubts or observations, it's infinitely more loving to do it in the context of that person's strengths, not just constantly strip them down. i've been through it - it is definitely a form of abuse and i'm very sorry your sense of self and self-worth has been shaped in any way by such a person, especially a parent.

at least you have enough of yourself to question what you are being told and the way you are being told. i can tell you without reservation that he has no right to judge you or evaluate you. he is probably projecting his own low-self-worth and self doubts onto you. his evaluation of your character or actions may not even remotely reflect any kind of reality. but in any case, everyone's perceptions are necessarily subjective and distorted and cannot be taken as fact. information maybe, but not a matter of fact. so i wish you great strength, love, and unwavering purpose in examining the self-image he has created for you and learning to question all of it. it's a long road but every turning point is well worth the effort.


But there is of course such a thing as accountability and at least trying to follow a parent's advice, right? Beyond whether or not it is fair for someone's father to drag him/her down that person still has a duty to make an effort and to be held accountable.


i believe there is no duty to someone who is abusive. period. they lose any right or privilege to our affections or loyalty when they abuse us.


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Lukecash12
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02 Apr 2014, 6:36 pm

Waterfalls wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
Opi wrote:
"faults" are a matter of opinion. nobody is god and has the right to inflict their opinions on someone else as if they were matters of fact. there are far more constructive ways to communicate concern, to love, and to support anyone. for instance, even in a case where one feels concerned enough to express certain doubts or observations, it's infinitely more loving to do it in the context of that person's strengths, not just constantly strip them down. i've been through it - it is definitely a form of abuse and i'm very sorry your sense of self and self-worth has been shaped in any way by such a person, especially a parent.

at least you have enough of yourself to question what you are being told and the way you are being told. i can tell you without reservation that he has no right to judge you or evaluate you. he is probably projecting his own low-self-worth and self doubts onto you. his evaluation of your character or actions may not even remotely reflect any kind of reality. but in any case, everyone's perceptions are necessarily subjective and distorted and cannot be taken as fact. information maybe, but not a matter of fact. so i wish you great strength, love, and unwavering purpose in examining the self-image he has created for you and learning to question all of it. it's a long road but every turning point is well worth the effort.


But there is of course such a thing as accountability and at least trying to follow a parent's advice, right? Beyond whether or not it is fair for someone's father to drag him/her down that person still has a duty to make an effort and to be held accountable.

We all do the best we can. But it's the parents job to try harder and set the example. Perhaps Bobba has tried to follow his father's advice. Maybe his father is too angry to let things get better right now.


You're certainly right. My problem a lot of times is when "the best we can do" is used as an excuse for not being accountable.

Now, from Opi:

Quote:
i believe there is no duty to someone who is abusive. period. they lose any right or privilege to our affections or loyalty when they abuse us.


And is being very or constantly caustic and critical "abusive"? What if I was doing all kinds of things that were obviously wrong and unfair to my father and he acted like OP described because I just wouldn't stop? It's a hard situation to judge without particulars. Of course parents can be abusive but they can also be very critical like that because they bust their asses to make something of their child's life and don't receive any effort in return.

Look, I agree with a lot of what you guys say here, and have my own issues with parents dragging down one's self esteem unfairly. But someone has to bring in some balance and decide not to jump the gun and assume OP's father is abusive and that OP is trying as much as he should. I hope he understands that, and he understands that I don't really know his situation well enough to form a conclusion either way. Just trying to cover different bases.

Bobba isn't worthless at all, it's just a valid question whether or not he is being accountable. If his father really does throw into question his worth as a person then I am not behind that at all. But we don't all luck out in the parental lottery sadly, and despite it taking some time I think he can get past this. I was never "good enough" for my father either, even after I got a few degrees and accomplished a lot. It didn't change, whether I was younger and floundering or older and successful he still had to criticize me and demean me as if I and my kind were a segment of the population that shouldn't exist, that my ideals and interests were what normal adults matured out of. But he doesn't get to decide for me my value as a person and neither does OP's father. If OP wants to be a success in life and he wants to feel good about himself, in spite of any setbacks there are it is still ultimately up to him.


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Last edited by Lukecash12 on 02 Apr 2014, 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Opi
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02 Apr 2014, 6:39 pm

Quote:
And is being very or constantly caustic and critical "abusive"?


yes.


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Lukecash12
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02 Apr 2014, 6:45 pm

Opi wrote:
Quote:
And is being very or constantly caustic and critical "abusive"?


yes.


So you don't see any behavior that could warrant that? And this: if someone abuses you they lose every right to be a love object? That is strange. My ex wife wasn't very good to me, but before things got to a certain point I never would have thought that. We all mess up and there has to be some forgiveness involved for any relationship to work. I'm sure there is a lot that OP's father does for him by providing for him and it's very possible that OP's father expresses his love and support for him, too. Just because a parent is often critical doesn't mean that there isn't another side to them, or that they shouldn't be loved.


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