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Raptor
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09 Apr 2014, 7:39 pm

adb wrote:
khaoz wrote:
It's not how much you give, but how much you care that matters. Giving is not all about money. Giving is about love and caring. How much would Conservatives be giving if there was not a tax write off to be gained? You can tell by how Conservatives treat the poor, the sick and the elderly how much they actually care. And quite frankly, bragging about how much one gives to charity is hardly an act of virtue. That makes the "giving" more about the giver than about the recipient. I think the Bible has some teachings about that particular behaviorism. That is, if the right wing revisionists have not already removed the teachings from the Bible that illuminate their hypocrisy.

What makes the giving more about the giver than about the recipient is when you claim that caring is more important than the help. If you are starving to death, $100 from a jerk is going to be a lot more help than $10 from someone who is nice. The attitude of the giver doesn't negate the difference in value. Your children aren't going to care one bit about your love if you aren't feeding them.

Very well said, and true. :cheers:


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jrjones9933
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09 Apr 2014, 8:40 pm

I find it difficult to regard the folks whose representatives insist that letting people go hungry will create more opportunities for them as the more charitable side. The conservatives around here certainly give more facepalms and headdesks...



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10 Apr 2014, 12:59 am

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1132 ... -effective


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sonofghandi
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10 Apr 2014, 8:54 am

adb wrote:
What makes the giving more about the giver than about the recipient is when you claim that caring is more important than the help. If you are starving to death, $100 from a jerk is going to be a lot more help than $10 from someone who is nice. The attitude of the giver doesn't negate the difference in value. Your children aren't going to care one bit about your love if you aren't feeding them.


^QFT


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10 Apr 2014, 9:10 am

Not sure it comes down to conservatives vs. liberals, probably more of an individual thing....there are plenty of decent people with more conservative leanings and same with liberals.

I don't really see the point of this thread, aside from to create more conservative vs. liberal bickering....Also I think when the 'liberals' though its not just liberals bring this up its more about wealthy conservatives in the government or who are influencing the government promoting stigma against the poor and people who need welfare even if its due to being disabled. I don't want to say its strictly conservatives but I haven't really heard much of that rhetoric from other political affiliations. At the end of the day if someone in that position donates to 'chairity' for a tax write of and still encourages that sort of stigma they aren't actually helping anyone that terribly much.

Also charity isn't always what its cut out to be, some charity organizations aren't even legit and don't really end up helping people too much or there might be very specific regulations on who can receive the charity depending on the leanings of the organization.

So what really is the point of this thread? I mean it just looks bad if someone encourages that stigma and then says 'look I gave money to chairity look how much more I give than people of (insert non conservative leaning) and continues to encourage the stigma and talk badly about the people who may benefit from said charity.



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10 Apr 2014, 9:43 am

I'd rather take the ten dollars freely given,than have someone lord it over me that they gave me a hundred dollars,but then I'm stubborn.


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sonofghandi
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10 Apr 2014, 9:46 am

Misslizard wrote:
I'd rather take the ten dollars freely given,than have someone lord it over me that they gave me a hundred dollars,but then I'm stubborn.


^ditto


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adb
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10 Apr 2014, 9:56 am

Misslizard wrote:
I'd rather take the ten dollars freely given,than have someone lord it over me that they gave me a hundred dollars,but then I'm stubborn.

I can see this, but it brings up the question of the value of welfare. Welfare isn't freely given. It's taken from other people via taxation. If you only want money freely given to you, why accept welfare? Since the contributors to welfare have no choice, is it unexpected that they will feel resentful and potentially "lord it over you"?



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10 Apr 2014, 10:05 am

They don't lord it over me to my face.The people who pay via taxes may need it some day themselves.I do agree it should be a safety net and not a hammock.
People are always resentful of taxes,I don't know anyone who gets excited about paying them. :D


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10 Apr 2014, 10:12 am

I don't see the problem with paying taxes to fund programs that help the public....seems like one of those parts of contributing your fair share to society. Also people forget its not as though the majority of tax money is going to welfare, and sometimes the government ends up spending taxes on ridiculous un-needed projects I will perhaps try and look up some specific examples.....yet I don't hear a lot of people complain about that sort of thing.

Meh if I could work I'd certainly have no problem paying my taxes, sometimes I dislike how the government chooses to use tax money, but getting rid of all taxation just does not seem like the most rational of solutions for that issue.



Stannis
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10 Apr 2014, 12:08 pm

Misslizard wrote:
They don't lord it over me to my face.The people who pay via taxes may need it some day themselves.I do agree it should be a safety net and not a hammock.
People are always resentful of taxes,I don't know anyone who gets excited about paying them. :D


Perhaps this is an issue with propaganda. You could switch the propaganda to make people feel excited about the programs which their tax dollars fund, and I guess you'd get a more favourable disposition towards taxes.

It would also help if they changed the rhetoric a little bit, like from government spending to government investment.



adb
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10 Apr 2014, 12:24 pm

Stannis wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
They don't lord it over me to my face.The people who pay via taxes may need it some day themselves.I do agree it should be a safety net and not a hammock.
People are always resentful of taxes,I don't know anyone who gets excited about paying them. :D


Perhaps this is an issue with propaganda. You could switch the propaganda to make people feel excited about the programs which their tax dollars fund, and I guess you'd get a more favourable disposition towards taxes.

It would also help if they changed the rhetoric a little bit, like from government spending to government investment.

I don't think there is any amount of propaganda or rhetoric that is going to overcome the resentment I feel when I do my taxes and see how much of my labor goes toward wars, corporate welfare, and other stupidity (including social "services").



Stannis
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10 Apr 2014, 12:34 pm

adb wrote:
Stannis wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
They don't lord it over me to my face.The people who pay via taxes may need it some day themselves.I do agree it should be a safety net and not a hammock.
People are always resentful of taxes,I don't know anyone who gets excited about paying them. :D


Perhaps this is an issue with propaganda. You could switch the propaganda to make people feel excited about the programs which their tax dollars fund, and I guess you'd get a more favourable disposition towards taxes.

It would also help if they changed the rhetoric a little bit, like from government spending to government investment.

I don't think there is any amount of propaganda or rhetoric that is going to overcome the resentment I feel when I do my taxes and see how much of my labor goes toward wars, corporate welfare, and other stupidity (including social "services").


The thing is, in a society full of conflicting interest groups, why would you expect to agree with everything tax money is spent on? You probably agree with some of the stuff (potentially), and I suppose a savvy pro taxation propagandist would try to make you excited about some of that stuff. We can either view taxation as robbery, or as an efficient way that we can get some of our collective needs met. The attitude that predominates is largely a result of propaganda.



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10 Apr 2014, 2:31 pm

Most people grumble about taxes and don't agree with how tax revenue is spent but they grudgingly accept it, anyway. What really pisses people off is to see or know of able bodied/able minded individuals that even in the best of job markets would rather do nothing but find new ways to game the system than to make a living via employment. It doesnt really matter what small percentage of tax money is spent on them, it's the principle of it that bugs the s**t out of them.


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Stannis
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10 Apr 2014, 3:52 pm

Raptor wrote:
Most people grumble about taxes and don't agree with how tax revenue is spent but they grudgingly accept it, anyway. What really pisses people off is to see or know of able bodied/able minded individuals that even in the best of job markets would rather do nothing but find new ways to game the system than to make a living via employment. It doesnt really matter what small percentage of tax money is spent on them, it's the principle of it that bugs the sh** out of them.


You're responding to propaganda there. It's in the interests of individual businesses to have high unemployment to make the employees position more precarious. Given that this is a business run society, we will never have full employment. Having a few people who are happy to be on (beneath) subsistence benefits, free's up the job's for those of us who actually want them. It works, and it seems to me that feeling hatred for those lazy guys just plays into the hands of those who want welfare to end so that the workforce becomes more desperate and exploitable.



Last edited by Stannis on 10 Apr 2014, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Raptor
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10 Apr 2014, 3:59 pm

Stannis wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Most people grumble about taxes and don't agree with how tax revenue is spent but they grudgingly accept it, anyway. What really pisses people off is to see or know of able bodied/able minded individuals that even in the best of job markets would rather do nothing but find new ways to game the system than to make a living via employment. It doesnt really matter what small percentage of tax money is spent on them, it's the principle of it that bugs the sh** out of them.


You're responding to propaganda there. It's in the interests of individual businesses to have high unemployment to make the employees position more precarious. Given that this is a business run society, we will never have full employment. Having a few people who are happy to be on (beneath) subsistence benefits, free's up the job's for those of us who actually want them. It works, and it seems to me that feeling hatred for those lazy guys just plays into the hands of those who want social security to end so that the workforce becomes more desperate and exploitable.


Yea right; it's all a bourgeois conspiracy to keep the proletariat under the iron boot-heel of capitalism.
How could I be so dense.......
:roll: :roll:


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