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Sethno
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24 Apr 2014, 12:11 pm

Since the shop my refurb P4 computer came from won't upgrade it to W7Pro for me (other customers have complained about slowness), I'm thinking of putting Linux on it (not that I know anything about Linux, right now). I figure with WINE in addition to a Linux OS, I might even be able to keep using my cherished "Photo Deluxe" art and photo software, which the XP mode on 7Pro will allow, but with the same dangers as XP poses, since apparently the XP mode won't be supported any more either.

I'm right about WINE, right?

I'm concerned about internet security, tho'. What sort of virus protection can you get that works with Linux, and how's about a firewall? (I'm sure that by this time, there must be SOME malware aimed at Linux systems, and I'd like to not have them pay me a visit.)

Finally, how's about drivers for the computer and its parts? Since Windows now seems to have just about all drivers in the universe for any machine you put it in, do current versions of Linux?

Talk to me like I'm five years old, since I really am brand new to this.

Thanks.



Bodyles
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24 Apr 2014, 2:24 pm

WINE runs some stuff ok, not so much other stuff, and if there isn't a package for your software already made for it, it can be tough to get it working.
Since your software is so old, it's hard to tell, but you might have a shot.

Still, you might give GIMP a try first as it's current, free, comes bundled with some distros, and I hear it gives Photoshop a run for its money, though I'm completely unable to use such software so I couldn't really tell you.

There are a few Linux AV programs like clamshell, but due to the protected nature of a linux root user most viruses/trojans/etc can't and don't usually touch any core systems, and so it's not a big deal.
I've had linux on this box for about 8 months with no adverse effects, with no AV or firewall.

Linux has drivers, but sometimes the initial install will get some wrong and you'll need to install & set 'em manually.
Also, most distros need to be updated extensively after the initial install.

I'm running Linux Mint, supposedly the simplest, most user friend version with a large support community & furums & such and a lot of built in goodies, which is based off of unbuntu, arguably the most popular version in the world atm, so its core packages are also well supported & updated frequently.

It'd been over a decade since my last attempt at using linux as a primary OS, and I have to say that it's like night & day.
Linux Mint is a nice, prebuilt, fully GUI OS with terminal accessibility for the fun stuff, built in browsers, OpenOffice, GIMP, deluge for torrents, etc.

I installed Apache, MySQL, and PHP as well as memcached, and am using it as a local development environment for web projects through Apache VirtualHosts.
I'm typing this using the most current version of Firefox, and I can use all my favorite extentions with it. :)

I still have a Windows install on this box as a dual boot, but I mostly just use it to play WoW these days, everything else is pretty much on the Linux install & I don't think I'm ever going back.

Your mileage may vary.

I learned Unix at around 11 or 12 when I first got on the internet with a Unix shell account, had to compile things like Perl, IRC, my first text-based webbrowser, and a bunch of other code just to do most stuff back then, learned how to debug code & deal with compiler errors to get my programs compiled & working, did my first Linux install around 15years of age, and have experience with debugging C, C++ & complier problems as well as general knowledge of Linux & Unix systems, how they're structured, and how to fix them when things break.
Also, I'm not afraid to look it up, find the solution & implement it if necessary.
I've had to use significant portions of that knowledge on more than one occasion since installing Linux, although admittedly some of that involved hand-compiling OpenVPN from the source instead of using the package install since I needed at the time to tunnel to my phone's data connection in order to get online.
Totally worked though, once I fixed the incorrect directory settings in a bunch of the source files & set it to compile without SSL/SSH. :)

If you're a die-hard techno-geek, I'd say don't even hesitate, install today.
Otherwise, well, let's just say that you should be prepared for a potentially steep learning curve & learning to troubleshoot & fix problems out of the box.
I'm not saying it won't go smoothly.
The distros these days are pretty slick & well put together, and I've heard of people just installing, auto-updating, and having no issues whatsoever, but I've never had a Linux install go smoothly as all that, so you should be prepared for some geeky frustration & education.

The good news: there's tons of help online if you have problems.
The bad news: you have to figure out what applies to you & how to properly apply it, and then just go for it & hope if it doesn't fix things that you can at least revert back to an earlier state or that if not that it doesn't make things worse.

Best of luck to you. :)

Yay Linux! :D



Kurgan
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24 Apr 2014, 3:55 pm

Sethno wrote:
Since the shop my refurb P4 computer came from won't upgrade it to W7Pro for me (other customers have complained about slowness), I'm thinking of putting Linux on it (not that I know anything about Linux, right now). I figure with WINE in addition to a Linux OS, I might even be able to keep using my cherished "Photo Deluxe" art and photo software, which the XP mode on 7Pro will allow, but with the same dangers as XP poses, since apparently the XP mode won't be supported any more either.

I'm right about WINE, right?

I'm concerned about internet security, tho'. What sort of virus protection can you get that works with Linux, and how's about a firewall? (I'm sure that by this time, there must be SOME malware aimed at Linux systems, and I'd like to not have them pay me a visit.)

Finally, how's about drivers for the computer and its parts? Since Windows now seems to have just about all drivers in the universe for any machine you put it in, do current versions of Linux?

Talk to me like I'm five years old, since I really am brand new to this.

Thanks.


There are open-source drivers for pretty much anything on Linux. With that being said, proprietary drivers are almost always better. You'll find proprietary drivers for most types of hardware as well for Linux.

There are no viruses "out in the wild" for desktop versions of Linux, but you still need an anti virus; if you were to get a virus, it could do more harm on a Linux computer than on a Windows computer. Avast or BitDefender will keep you safe, in any case, be sure to install AppArmor (this is really easy), rather than SELinux.

WINE will run pretty much anything (in some cases, workarounds are needed) apart from advanced graphical tools like 3DS Max and Photoshop.

I recommend Linux Mint. It looks good, but it's also user friendly, stable, fast, and has the same customizability as any other distro.


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Bodyles
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24 Apr 2014, 4:34 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Sethno wrote:
Since the shop my refurb P4 computer came from won't upgrade it to W7Pro for me (other customers have complained about slowness), I'm thinking of putting Linux on it (not that I know anything about Linux, right now). I figure with WINE in addition to a Linux OS, I might even be able to keep using my cherished "Photo Deluxe" art and photo software, which the XP mode on 7Pro will allow, but with the same dangers as XP poses, since apparently the XP mode won't be supported any more either.

I'm right about WINE, right?

I'm concerned about internet security, tho'. What sort of virus protection can you get that works with Linux, and how's about a firewall? (I'm sure that by this time, there must be SOME malware aimed at Linux systems, and I'd like to not have them pay me a visit.)

Finally, how's about drivers for the computer and its parts? Since Windows now seems to have just about all drivers in the universe for any machine you put it in, do current versions of Linux?

Talk to me like I'm five years old, since I really am brand new to this.

Thanks.


There are open-source drivers for pretty much anything on Linux. With that being said, proprietary drivers are almost always better. You'll find proprietary drivers for most types of hardware as well for Linux.

There are no viruses "out in the wild" for desktop versions of Linux, but you still need an anti virus; if you were to get a virus, it could do more harm on a Linux computer than on a Windows computer. Avast or BitDefender will keep you safe, in any case, be sure to install AppArmor (this is really easy), rather than SELinux.

WINE will run pretty much anything (in some cases, workarounds are needed) apart from advanced graphical tools like 3DS Max and Photoshop.

I recommend Linux Mint. It looks good, but it's also user friendly, stable, fast, and has the same customizability as any other distro.


Really antivirus?
Huh.

I'll look into it, it just seems like a waste of RAM on something so unlikely to get compromised.
Maybe that's changed though, it's been years since I really looked into it. :roll:

Also, I've had bad luck trying to run things like the old Safari version for Windows on WINE, as well as some other programs, but I wasn't really too persistant about it so I suppose I pmight've gotten them working if I really tried.

+1 for Linux Mint, great distro, bet I'll be using it for years. :D



Kurgan
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24 Apr 2014, 5:23 pm

Why would you want to run Safari when you can run Firefox or Chrome? :P Safari might actually contain code that blocks WINE from executing it; I know for a fact that several OS X applications contain code that prevents Darling from running it.


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Last edited by Kurgan on 24 Apr 2014, 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bodyles
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24 Apr 2014, 5:28 pm

Because I'm a web developer & I was trying to test cross-browser compatibility issues, obviously. :P



Cornflake
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25 Apr 2014, 6:10 am

Kurgan wrote:
There are no viruses "out in the wild" for desktop versions of Linux, but you still need an anti virus;
That being the case, which Linux viruses could these products offer protection from?
Maybe I missed it, but neither the Avast nor BitDefender sites seemed to have specific details.
Quote:
Avast or BitDefender will keep you safe
From what?

Quote:
in any case, be sure to install AppArmor
Last time I checked it's installed by default on *buntu.


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sliqua-jcooter
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25 Apr 2014, 8:52 am

Cornflake wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
There are no viruses "out in the wild" for desktop versions of Linux, but you still need an anti virus;
That being the case, which Linux viruses could these products offer protection from?
Maybe I missed it, but neither the Avast nor BitDefender sites seemed to have specific details.


AV products for linux are designed for linux file servers and such to find windows viruses before the windows clients pick them up. Or, alternatively, for complying with stupid IT policies like "every host must have antivirus". Not even hardcore security research companies put AV on linux boxes unless they're going to serve Windows hosts.


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Bodyles
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25 Apr 2014, 9:08 am

Thanks guys, that's what I thought.

AV on a local LInux box, imagine the silliness. :lol:



Cornflake
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25 Apr 2014, 10:14 am

sliqua-jcooter wrote:
AV products for linux are designed for linux file servers and such to find windows viruses before the windows clients pick them up.
Yeah, that's what I thought it would be about - saving Windows users from themselves.
Not quite how it was presented here though, but I think that had more to do with an axe.


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Kurgan
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25 Apr 2014, 10:26 am

Cornflake wrote:
From what?


Viruses that can be spread on the internet in the future, or contracted from other places than the internet (LANs and so on).

Quote:
Last time I checked it's installed by default on *buntu.


It had to be enabled manually when I installed Mint.

@sliqua-scooter: An anti virus program with good heuristics might actually have stopped the Operation Windigo malware before it spread. Ransomware on Linux powered smart TVs, malware on GPS systems, or the fact that 98% of all mobile phone viruses target Android, is a living proof that it's not harder to make malware for Linux than it is on any other popular platform. Some Android viruses even manage to gain root access. I've never had a serious virus (something you won't get unless you open attachments in suspicious mail) on any platform; going with Pascal's wager is still a wise decission.


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Cornflake
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25 Apr 2014, 11:30 am

Kurgan wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
From what?
Viruses that can be spread on the internet in the future, or contracted from other places than the internet (LANs and so on).
Like what, and using what, since Avast and BitDefender do nothing for Linux and will clearly not "keep you safe".

Quote:
Ransomware on Linux powered smart TVs, malware on GPS systems
Hmm, devices (like Android phones) having highly customised software based on parts of the wider Linux codebase and compromised in the process of customisation - or by the user, like jailbreaking an Apple phone. This issue is not unique to devices using Linux-related code so it's a bit of a red herring in a discussion about desktop devices.

I remember some noise a while ago about a TomTom GPS device that had Windows malware installed and when connected to a Windows machine could theoretically cause a problem - but this is the same as Windows being infected by malware on a USB stick and has nothing to to with Linux vulnerabilities. Didn't Apple have the same problem with Windows malware being passed around on one of their devices?
In all, not too much of an indication on the performance of Linux desktop devices.

Quote:
I've never had a serious virus (something you won't get unless you open attachments in suspicious mail) on any platform;
How would this function on a Linux-based mail client? Do you know of any Linux vulnerabilities attacked in this way, or is this just another "safe only because it's not worth the effort" argument?


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Kurgan
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25 Apr 2014, 2:05 pm

Cornflake wrote:
Like what, and using what, since Avast and BitDefender do nothing for Linux and will clearly not "keep you safe".


http://www.bitdefender.com/business/ant ... nices.html

Quote:
Hmm, devices (like Android phones) having highly customised software based on parts of the wider Linux codebase and compromised in the process of customisation - or by the user, like jailbreaking an Apple phone. This issue is not unique to devices using Linux-related code so it's a bit of a red herring in a discussion about desktop devices.


Android is mostly Linux with a few pieces from FreeBSD. Only a few modifications are made by the manufacturer, or the app selection would be rather limited. You do not need to root your device to get a virus, that's why viruses are a problem on Android. You can get viruses for iOS as well, but you need to jailbreak it first.


Quote:
I remember some noise a while ago about a TomTom GPS device that had Windows malware installed and when connected to a Windows machine could theoretically cause a problem - but this is the same as Windows being infected by malware on a USB stick and has nothing to to with Linux vulnerabilities. Didn't Apple have the same problem with Windows malware being passed around on one of their devices?
In all, not too much of an indication on the performance of Linux desktop devices.


The viruses managed to enter the devices via a security breach in TomTom's systems--systems who are Linux based.

Quote:
How would this function on a Linux-based mail client? Do you know of any Linux vulnerabilities attacked in this way, or is this just another "safe only because it's not worth the effort" argument?


KDE and Gnome are capable of executing stuff like this without root privileges. It will be much more confined than a virus with root privileges, but it can still harm files, for example. People have sent viruses as both .deb and RPM files before. A lot of people get an unpleasant suprise the first time they run rkhunter.

Smart televisions here in Norway were hijacked via attachments in mail. Since these are pretty much low powered computers running Linux, the same is also possible on desktop computers running Linux. Both the smart TV ransomware and Operation Windigo caught everyone of guard, if you know what I mean--and could have been avoided if people took precautions.

Server versions of Linux, Android phones, smart televisions, and so on are interesting targets to attack--which is why there are indeed several types of malware here. Google pays you to find security holes, which makes it less tempting to make malware, though.


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25 Apr 2014, 5:53 pm

How to infect a Linux, BSD, or System V UNIX system with a Virus:

Firstly, you download it. This can be in any number of ways, from downloading the Virus as a Sourcecode Tarball, compile andd install it yourself. This is best done by logging off your regular user account, and logging in via the root account. --Technically, you can use the 'sudo' command to do this, but it's better to use the root account, and it's elevated privileges to compile code that will wankerise you system properly.

What you need to do before invoking GCC to compile, is to ensure that you have the required libraries present on your system in order for the virus to cause your system to malfunction. -- it is very important that you have the required libraries present on your system or else compiling the virus to screw your system up will exit with a bunch of error messages. --This method will work with any UNIX or UNIX-alike system.

Conversely, with either BSD Unix, derivative systems like OSX, or Gentoo Linux based systems, you can pop open a terminal and use Portage to download, compile and install the code that will cause your system to malfunction. --Portage will automatically take care of library dependancies that the virus may have.

With more mainstream Linux distros, downloading and installing the proper virus file in binary format becomes easier because you download the binary files in specific to ruining the distribution that you use,(usually as either RPM files, or .deb packages) the version of that distro, as well as the archetecture, (x86, amd64,ARM,SPARC, and so on) and congradulate yourself on the fact that that you have infected your computer with malicious code.

BUT SERIOUSLY THOUGH,

You really have nothing to worry about with Viruses on Linux, or UNIX in general, as it's a much more secure platform than windows. Linux AV programs?
Yes, they do exist, but these are server-side programs designed to catch Windows viruses in the wild, and prevent them from infecting Windows computers that are connected to a 'NIX server, not to stop UNIX viruses.

Also, theoretically, Windows based malicious code can possibly run in WINE, but won't damage your 'NIX system. --You may possibly have to wipe out /home/.wine directory, uninstall WINE, and reinstall it along with Windows software that you use, but I can't seem to recall hearing of malicious code infecting WINE.

One of the reasons why Unix systems do not have virus issues is due to the fact that UNIX type systems do not install everything on one gigantic partition like Windows does.

Your '/' and '/usr' partitions are separate, and hopefully you were able to set your system up with a separate '/home' partition as well.

Also, a bit about drivers. In Linux, Drivers are actually kernel modules. Default Kernels that ship with almost all Linux Distros aside from spcialised distros are designed to support most hardware on install. The only Kernel modules that you will have to install are video card specific, and only really for NVidia or AMD/ATI chipsets. Most distros will prompt you to install them on first run. --It's simply a matter of being connected to the internet after installing the OS, and downloading the modules, Your package manager will take care of the rest, but you will have to reboot the system in order for changes to take effect.


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25 Apr 2014, 10:36 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
Like what, and using what, since Avast and BitDefender do nothing for Linux and will clearly not "keep you safe".
http://www.bitdefender.com/business/ant ... nices.html
That doesn't answer my earlier question about which of the zero Linux viruses in the wild it can "keep you safe" from.

Quote:
Quote:
Hmm, devices (like Android phones) having highly customised software based on parts of the wider Linux codebase and compromised in the process of customisation - or by the user, like jailbreaking an Apple phone. This issue is not unique to devices using Linux-related code so it's a bit of a red herring in a discussion about desktop devices.
Android is mostly Linux with a few pieces from FreeBSD.
Smartphone malware is still not unique to Android, and raising it as if it were relevant to a desktop machine running a Linux distro is still a red herring.

Quote:
Quote:
I remember some noise a while ago about a TomTom GPS device that had Windows malware installed and when connected to a Windows machine could theoretically cause a problem - but this is the same as Windows being infected by malware on a USB stick and has nothing to to with Linux vulnerabilities. Didn't Apple have the same problem with Windows malware being passed around on one of their devices?
In all, not too much of an indication on the performance of Linux desktop devices.
The viruses managed to enter the devices via a security breach in TomTom's systems--systems who are Linux based.
Yes, TomTom's procedures were breached, and Windows malware ended up on what appears to a Windows machine as a FAT32 drive - just like a USB stick could, and has, been used as a malware vector. Apple had a similar problem with the iPod around the same time, IIRC.
No Linux required - only lax procedures.

Quote:
Quote:
How would this function on a Linux-based mail client? Do you know of any Linux vulnerabilities attacked in this way, or is this just another "safe only because it's not worth the effort" argument?
KDE and Gnome are capable of executing stuff like this without root privileges.
This also didn't answer my question.


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Kurgan
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26 Apr 2014, 8:45 am

[quoteThat doesn't answer my earlier question about which of the zero Linux viruses in the wild it can "keep you safe" from.
[/quote]

Potential virus threats in the future, for instance. Remember when everyone claimed that Android was malware free?

Edit: Turns out that there is malware out in the wild. Browser hijackers are beginning to target Linux as well.

Quote:
Android is mostly Linux with a few pieces from FreeBSD.
Smartphone malware is still not unique to Android, and raising it as if it were relevant to a desktop machine running a Linux distro is still a red herring.
[/quote]

I'm not trying to discredit Linux or anything, but Android is a proof of what would happen if it became popular on desktops. 90% of all smartphones run either iOS or Android (UNIX like systems). The reason why Windows Phone is "virus free", is that it has a 9% market share.

Quote:
Yes, TomTom's procedures were breached, and Windows malware ended up on what appears to a Windows machine as a FAT32 drive - just like a USB stick could, and has, been used as a malware vector. Apple had a similar problem with the iPod around the same time, IIRC.
No Linux required - only lax procedures.


First of all, the virus had to be transmitted via the TomTom software, so it's not like putting an infected USB stick in the machine. Second, the very same thing would be possible on any other popular OS.

Quote:
This also didn't answer my question.


What was your question, then? Email attachments do not have execution flags enabled by default, but you can still execute them with Gnome, KDE or similar frontends--without root privileges. Email attachments such as CryptoLocker or similar won't be installed on a Windows computer either unless you execute them.


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