What do you think of increasing the voting age?

Page 2 of 4 [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 87
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

03 Jun 2014, 8:35 pm

Anyone old enough to be inducted into the armed forces is old enough to vote. If a person qualifies to be put in harm's way then he qualifies to vote on the hazards to which he or she is subject.

ruveyn



XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

03 Jun 2014, 8:38 pm

I think voting age is good at 18.

I think drinking should be brought down to 18 and driving age to 21.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)


pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

04 Jun 2014, 1:42 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
I think voting age is good at 18.

I think drinking should be brought down to 18 and driving age to 21.


Driving age to 21? Why?

Once in Poland to get a driver's license, it was enough to have 16 years. in other European countries was similar.
Since the 90s the limit has been increased and now to do the driving license must be 18 years old, probably only the UK is 17 years old. I once read on one web portal about cars that the U.S. is in this respect ware more normal, because in America, depending on the State can do a driving course from 15-16 years of age.


The funny thing is that, in accordance with the guidelines of the Polish Civil Aviation Authority in Poland for a glider pilot license PPL (G) ypu can get it when you have 15 years of life, is not it strange?



zer0netgain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Mar 2009
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,613

04 Jun 2014, 6:02 am

ruveyn wrote:
Anyone old enough to be inducted into the armed forces is old enough to vote. If a person qualifies to be put in harm's way then he qualifies to vote on the hazards to which he or she is subject.

ruveyn


This.

I think (given the overall maturity of current youth) the voting age needs to be raised to 25, but then the age for COMPULSORY military service should be raised to 25 as well. Those who want to join at 18 can still join, and perhaps only those serving in the military would have voting rights BEFORE 25.



The_Walrus
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,789
Location: London

04 Jun 2014, 6:29 am

zer0netgain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Anyone old enough to be inducted into the armed forces is old enough to vote. If a person qualifies to be put in harm's way then he qualifies to vote on the hazards to which he or she is subject.

ruveyn


This.

I think (given the overall maturity of current youth) the voting age needs to be raised to 25, but then the age for COMPULSORY military service should be raised to 25 as well. Those who want to join at 18 can still join, and perhaps only those serving in the military would have voting rights BEFORE 25.

I am sorry, but this is an idiotic opinion. For one, forcing a large part of the labour force to do something as pointless as military service would harm the economy, and would be ridiculously illiberal.

Those who join the army tend to be those who see no other future for themselves. They tend to be less well educated and less informed than their peers. Your proposed solution would stop the politically turned on youth from voting.

I would also like to challenge your assumption that "the current youth" are any more immature than you would expect. Alcohol and drug use amongst young people is down. College attendance is up. Homophobia is down, and in general young people have stronger morals than old people. Teen pregnancy is down. Voting for the "free-booze-for-all" party is as low as ever. The main sign of immaturity on the increase amongst young people? Voter apathy.

Immature old people, on the other hand...

tl;dr: everything you said is wrong



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

04 Jun 2014, 7:28 am

zer0netgain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Anyone old enough to be inducted into the armed forces is old enough to vote. If a person qualifies to be put in harm's way then he qualifies to vote on the hazards to which he or she is subject.

ruveyn


This.

I think (given the overall maturity of current youth) the voting age needs to be raised to 25, but then the age for COMPULSORY military service should be raised to 25 as well. Those who want to join at 18 can still join, and perhaps only those serving in the military would have voting rights BEFORE 25.


As you know, I'm not an American, but from what I know I think there is some provision of the U.S. Constitution, which prohibits favoring one social group over another. Because I like for what reason 18 year old soldier would be better treated than his peer who still can perform equally dangerous job.
In Poland, one politician suggested to increase the minimum voting age to 20 or 21 years, but in Poland since independence voting age was equal to the age of majority is 18 years old. (That was always, even under communism, but then "elections" no one cared, and we all know who wins :D )
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7G0WS7vJI[/youtube]
They used to look like as in this cartoon :D
BTW
This month we celebrate the 25th anniversary of the first after the fall of communism, free elections, on this occasion, our president has been visited by President Obama




Anyway, I do not understand why the 18-year-old, who may have above-average intelligence, while the 25 year old bum from the liquor store could vote for whom he/she pleases , it would be grossly unfair.



zer0netgain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Mar 2009
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,613

05 Jun 2014, 9:45 am

The_Walrus wrote:
I am sorry, but this is an idiotic opinion. For one, forcing a large part of the labour force to do something as pointless as military service would harm the economy, and would be ridiculously illiberal.


Let me clarify.

Right now, if you are 18 and IF there was a draft enacted, you could be compelled into military service. This is a big reason why the voting age is 18. Many debate that alcohol should not be restricted to 21 because you can die for your country at 18.

If we raised the voting age to 25, we'd likewise say you can't be compelled into military service (if a draft was enacted) if you are under 25, but we should then allow an exception for those under 25 who serve/served in the military.



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

06 Jun 2014, 1:51 am

zer0netgain wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I am sorry, but this is an idiotic opinion. For one, forcing a large part of the labour force to do something as pointless as military service would harm the economy, and would be ridiculously illiberal.


Let me clarify.

Right now, if you are 18 and IF there was a draft enacted, you could be compelled into military service. This is a big reason why the voting age is 18. Many debate that alcohol should not be restricted to 21 because you can die for your country at 18.

If we raised the voting age to 25, we'd likewise say you can't be compelled into military service (if a draft was enacted) if you are under 25, but we should then allow an exception for those under 25 who serve/served in the military.


That's exactly my point of view :)



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

06 Jun 2014, 10:17 am

zer0netgain wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I am sorry, but this is an idiotic opinion. For one, forcing a large part of the labour force to do something as pointless as military service would harm the economy, and would be ridiculously illiberal.


Let me clarify.

Right now, if you are 18 and IF there was a draft enacted, you could be compelled into military service. This is a big reason why the voting age is 18. Many debate that alcohol should not be restricted to 21 because you can die for your country at 18.

If we raised the voting age to 25, we'd likewise say you can't be compelled into military service (if a draft was enacted) if you are under 25, but we should then allow an exception for those under 25 who serve/served in the military.



I came to my idea of ​​how such a situation could politically exploit :-)

For instance you can use to pique young soldiers deprived of the right to vote to take power. Skillful politician would promise to young soldiers deprived of the right to vote, to vote against the government using the aid of their service AK-47 :D , He will restore their right to vote.
And could become head of state instead of head of state :D



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,873
Location: temperate zone

06 Jun 2014, 12:02 pm

pawelk1986 wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I am sorry, but this is an idiotic opinion. For one, forcing a large part of the labour force to do something as pointless as military service would harm the economy, and would be ridiculously illiberal.


Let me clarify.

Right now, if you are 18 and IF there was a draft enacted, you could be compelled into military service. This is a big reason why the voting age is 18. Many debate that alcohol should not be restricted to 21 because you can die for your country at 18.

If we raised the voting age to 25, we'd likewise say you can't be compelled into military service (if a draft was enacted) if you are under 25, but we should then allow an exception for those under 25 who serve/served in the military.



I came to my idea of ??how such a situation could politically exploit :-)

For instance you can use to pique young soldiers deprived of the right to vote to take power. Skillful politician would promise to young soldiers deprived of the right to vote, to vote against the government using the aid of their service AK-47 :D , He will restore their right to vote.
And could become head of state instead of head of state :D


You write in English far better than I could write in Polish, but still, its broken English. So let me try to translate this into unbroken English.you're saying that we should deny 18 year olds the rigth to vote, but still draft them into the Army. That way you (mr. P) could exploit their resentment about not being able to vote to get them "to vote with their military issue guns" to back you in a coup to overthrow democracy, and make you the dictator.

Is that what you're saying?

If so then: I dont think it would even work, but even if it did: it would be great for you ( the putative dictator). But why should the rest of us support this?



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

06 Jun 2014, 12:44 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I am sorry, but this is an idiotic opinion. For one, forcing a large part of the labour force to do something as pointless as military service would harm the economy, and would be ridiculously illiberal.


Let me clarify.

Right now, if you are 18 and IF there was a draft enacted, you could be compelled into military service. This is a big reason why the voting age is 18. Many debate that alcohol should not be restricted to 21 because you can die for your country at 18.

If we raised the voting age to 25, we'd likewise say you can't be compelled into military service (if a draft was enacted) if you are under 25, but we should then allow an exception for those under 25 who serve/served in the military.



I came to my idea of ??how such a situation could politically exploit :-)

For instance you can use to pique young soldiers deprived of the right to vote to take power. Skillful politician would promise to young soldiers deprived of the right to vote, to vote against the government using the aid of their service AK-47 :D , He will restore their right to vote.
And could become head of state instead of head of state :D


You write in English far better than I could write in Polish, but still, its broken English. So let me try to translate this into unbroken English.you're saying that we should deny 18 year olds the rigth to vote, but still draft them into the Army. That way you (mr. P) could exploit their resentment about not being able to vote to get them "to vote with their military issue guns" to back you in a coup to overthrow democracy, and make you the dictator.

Is that what you're saying?

If so then: I dont think it would even work, but even if it did: it would be great for you ( the putative dictator). But why should the rest of us support this?


I would by my plan. A bunch of pissed off young disenfranchised soldiers (presumably Polish) plus the Kalash is equal to I, as head of the government instead the head of government :D

The truth that a beautiful idea, I'd like my favorite historical hero "Gaius Julius Caesar" :D

What do you think about my brilliant plan?



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,873
Location: temperate zone

06 Jun 2014, 4:36 pm

pawelk1986 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I am sorry, but this is an idiotic opinion. For one, forcing a large part of the labour force to do something as pointless as military service would harm the economy, and would be ridiculously illiberal.


Let me clarify.

Right now, if you are 18 and IF there was a draft enacted, you could be compelled into military service. This is a big reason why the voting age is 18. Many debate that alcohol should not be restricted to 21 because you can die for your country at 18.

If we raised the voting age to 25, we'd likewise say you can't be compelled into military service (if a draft was enacted) if you are under 25, but we should then allow an exception for those under 25 who serve/served in the military.



I came to my idea of ??how such a situation could politically exploit :-)

For instance you can use to pique young soldiers deprived of the right to vote to take power. Skillful politician would promise to young soldiers deprived of the right to vote, to vote against the government using the aid of their service AK-47 :D , He will restore their right to vote.
And could become head of state instead of head of state :D


You write in English far better than I could write in Polish, but still, its broken English. So let me try to translate this into unbroken English.you're saying that we should deny 18 year olds the rigth to vote, but still draft them into the Army. That way you (mr. P) could exploit their resentment about not being able to vote to get them "to vote with their military issue guns" to back you in a coup to overthrow democracy, and make you the dictator.

Is that what you're saying?

If so then: I dont think it would even work, but even if it did: it would be great for you ( the putative dictator). But why should the rest of us support this?


I would by my plan. A bunch of pissed off young disenfranchised soldiers (presumably Polish) plus the Kalash is equal to I, as head of the government instead the head of government :D

The truth that a beautiful idea, I'd like my favorite historical hero "Gaius Julius Caesar" :D

What do you think about my brilliant plan?


Eighteen year olds don't get very excited about politics in my experience. So denying them the vote wouldnt get them very pissed off. But if they did get passionate about it then the whole plan is a sort of a self-contradictory idea. Taking away the vote from soldiers so they will get pissed off so they support you so- so you can take away EVERY one's right to vote- including those same soldiers.It doesnt make sense. Youll just get them pissed off all over again- and then they will overthrow you. You have to pay off these soldiers somehow to keep them on your side once youve become the dictator so they will keep on supporting you as a dictator. Thats the missing ingredient in you nefarious plan.



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

06 Jun 2014, 5:18 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I am sorry, but this is an idiotic opinion. For one, forcing a large part of the labour force to do something as pointless as military service would harm the economy, and would be ridiculously illiberal.


Let me clarify.

Right now, if you are 18 and IF there was a draft enacted, you could be compelled into military service. This is a big reason why the voting age is 18. Many debate that alcohol should not be restricted to 21 because you can die for your country at 18.

If we raised the voting age to 25, we'd likewise say you can't be compelled into military service (if a draft was enacted) if you are under 25, but we should then allow an exception for those under 25 who serve/served in the military.



I came to my idea of ??how such a situation could politically exploit :-)

For instance you can use to pique young soldiers deprived of the right to vote to take power. Skillful politician would promise to young soldiers deprived of the right to vote, to vote against the government using the aid of their service AK-47 :D , He will restore their right to vote.
And could become head of state instead of head of state :D


You write in English far better than I could write in Polish, but still, its broken English. So let me try to translate this into unbroken English.you're saying that we should deny 18 year olds the rigth to vote, but still draft them into the Army. That way you (mr. P) could exploit their resentment about not being able to vote to get them "to vote with their military issue guns" to back you in a coup to overthrow democracy, and make you the dictator.

Is that what you're saying?

If so then: I dont think it would even work, but even if it did: it would be great for you ( the putative dictator). But why should the rest of us support this?


I would by my plan. A bunch of pissed off young disenfranchised soldiers (presumably Polish) plus the Kalash is equal to I, as head of the government instead the head of government :D

The truth that a beautiful idea, I'd like my favorite historical hero "Gaius Julius Caesar" :D

What do you think about my brilliant plan?


Eighteen year olds don't get very excited about politics in my experience. So denying them the vote wouldnt get them very pissed off. But if they did get passionate about it then the whole plan is a sort of a self-contradictory idea. Taking away the vote from soldiers so they will get pissed off so they support you so- so you can take away EVERY one's right to vote- including those same soldiers.It doesnt make sense. Youll just get them pissed off all over again- and then they will overthrow you. You have to pay off these soldiers somehow to keep them on your side once youve become the dictator so they will keep on supporting you as a dictator. Thats the missing ingredient in you nefarious plan.


People do a lot of foolishness when they are pissed off including helping potential dictator to rise to power you said
Quote:
Taking away the vote from soldiers so they will get pissed off so they support you so- so you can take away EVERY one's right to vote- including those same soldiers.It doesnt make sense

It makes perfect sense in the case of Poland and our national mentality we have saying in Poland "Jeśli ja tego nie bedę miał nikt tego nie dostanie" If I did not get It no one get :D
Such a young Pole will not care that in a few years they got the privilege will be interested only how to f**k Up other citizen, who has more privileges than he/she has.

We Poles excel other EU countries, in denouncing the other fellow citizens to the national tax office, do not do it out of a desire to assist the prosecution of those who do not pay their taxes, do not do it for patriotic reasons, only revenge that someone is more successful than him / herself . Besides for Poland good dictator would come in handy, it can then be rid of corruption, this is not such a problem as it was in the past, but is still present. Many Poles wanted to us to have such a good authoritarian leader of what was the Great Jozef Pilsudski :-)

Why do not I have be such leader as far as a high IQ, although I'm not a genius, but I'm tall and good looking -)
For this my Asperger's syndrome causes that I have an analytical mind.



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,873
Location: temperate zone

06 Jun 2014, 8:29 pm

If an American goes into a bank, and pulls a gun on the teller, he will demand that the teller give him free money.

But apparently if a Polish person walks into a bank, and pulls a gun on a teller, he will not demand free money. He will demand that the bank stop letting its customers have their money just to make the bank's customers suffer!

Lol!



Sounds more like Sid Ceaser than Julius Ceasar to me. But if you say so.

I hail the future Polish Ceasar!



pawelk1986
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,899
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

06 Jun 2014, 11:51 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
If an American goes into a bank, and pulls a gun on the teller, he will demand that the teller give him free money.

But apparently if a Polish person walks into a bank, and pulls a gun on a teller, he will not demand free money. He will demand that the bank stop letting its customers have their money just to make the bank's customers suffer!

Lol!



Sounds more like Sid Ceaser than Julius Ceasar to me. But if you say so.

I hail the future Polish Ceasar!


Unfortunately, malice is the biggest drawback of my nation. What best describes this scene from the cult Polish film "Day of the Wacko" the movie tells the story of a busy and anxious Polish teacher in middle age.
Watch this scene (note is a little racist) watch from 7:35
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6g4-TH5q5M[/youtube]



Weiss_Yohji
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 258
Location: Delaware

08 Jun 2014, 1:40 pm

No. If you're old enough to fight and die for your country, you're old enough to vote.

Instead, require people to pass a battery of IQ, science, history, economics, civics, math, and language tests in order to vote. Also, bar religious nuts from voting or even running for office as their beliefs are nothing but poison to any civilized society.